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Are Tesla cells going into non-Tesla products?

Discussion in 'TSLA Investor Discussions' started by Haxster, Oct 17, 2017.

  1. Haxster

    Haxster Member

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  2. wdolson

    wdolson Well-Known Member

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    They may just be Panasonic 18650s. They do sell them to other customers, but the cells they make for Tesla are proprietary chemistry.
     
  3. jaguar36

    jaguar36 Active Member

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    Where does it say anywhere that they are Tesla cells? I searched on the page and found no mention of Tesla.
    Regardless Tesla doesn't make any 18650s, they're made by Panasonic. Panasonic sells 18650s to tons of various customers, although who knows if the ones Tesla is buying have a special chemistry. 18650 just defines the cell size, not the chemistry, so you can have a ton of different 18650 from anyone with all sorts of different chemistries.
     
  4. scaesare

    scaesare Well-Known Member

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    #4 scaesare, Oct 17, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2017
    @jaguar36 the "Tesla Cells" claim is in one of the pictures....

    But they almost certainly are not. From the text in the ad:

    I've seen a few places claim "Tesla" cells, when in fact they are 18650's assumed to be similar to the ones Tesla uses. There's an e-Bike that made this claim a while back too.

    Not only has Tesla not ever discussed supplying raw cells for other manufacturers (although hey have built packs/modules for Toyota and Mercedes/Smart), the Tesla cells aren't red as in that picture. What's more, Tesla has such demand that they have sourced cells for the PowerWall and Roadster upgrade from other manufacturers. The chances of them supplying cells used on some no-name auxiliary power unit are practically nil...
     
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  5. TheTalkingMule

    TheTalkingMule Distributed Energy Enthusiast

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    I would love to buy a Powerwall 3 in 2020 for $3500+install with 1/4 of the cells "removable" for use in household tools like a vacuum, power drill or lawnmower.
     
  6. zdriver

    zdriver Member

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    "Tesla Cells", pre-silicon anode, are indeed 3,000mAh. It's entirely possible the seller is using cells from Model S&X modules, and just wrapping them with red shrink wrap (they're just bare metal casing straight from the modules)

    The fact they don't say they're from torn down modules however, tells me they're probably making things up.

    Depending on what e-Bike you're talking about, it very well could've been using Tesla-sourced cells. The guy I buy all my Tesla cells from (200+ over the past 2 years) specifically advertises on the endless-sphere e-bike forum, and builds custom packs for people's bikes.

    Either way, the only way anyone is using "Tesla cells" is used, pulled from crashed S & X.
     
  7. scaesare

    scaesare Well-Known Member

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    I'd expect that anybody using them as used/second-hand wouldn't be putting them in "new products" without disclosure.

    And I think the original cells were more like 3,200mAh.
     
  8. zdriver

    zdriver Member

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    Agreed.

    As for capacity, while I think you're right, I've never seen it on the cells I have, which had <15k miles on them when pulled. The highest I've tested on S 85 cells is ~3,100mAh, and interestingly enough, only on the most "abused" and heavily cycled cells - some of which I've cycled a handful of times between 4.30v and 0.00v (yes, discharge at 1A to ~0.5v, then clamped in a dead short for a day)

    I'm still doing initial testing on some ~5k mile old silicon anode P90D cells I just got, which should be >3,400mAh. Current best is 3,250mAh after 10 deep discharge cycles. Fresh out of the module charged to 4.20v w/ 50mA cut then discharged at 500mA to 2.50v registered 3,100mAh. Tesla's special sauce is almost certainly playing a very big role in the limited range degradation seen >100k miles.

    p90d-500mA.jpg
     
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  9. scaesare

    scaesare Well-Known Member

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    Cool stuff on the testing. I recall seeing a couple of other test threads where it was also something like 31xx mAh that resulted from tests. So perhaps 3,200 was the nameplate capacity, and you might have been able to get that out of them the first handful of cycles...

    Having any life at all after cycling down to 0v is amazing....
     
  10. zdriver

    zdriver Member

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    No kidding. I still don't trust those cells (charge outside or watch it and keep a bucket of sand handy), but they still cycled fine after multiple trips to and from 0v.
    I accidentally dragged one of the newer silicon anode cells to 0v already when I forgot to re-set a discharge cut voltage after a power flicker, so I'll try to report back if those are any different than the pre-silicon anode cells.

    Here's details of a 0v test on a cell from a 85kWh pack (pre-silicon anode) - Endless-sphere.com • View topic - Tesla Model S 18650 Cell Test Data

    If anyone wants to buy individual cells, that guy ("okashira") is the same one I buy cells from.
     
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  11. wdolson

    wdolson Well-Known Member

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    I think the picture in the ad is actually a drawing and if you opened up the product, they probably wouldn't be red either. The cells in the picture are very distorted from actual 18650s. I have some Panasonic 18650s I use in flashlights and they are shorter and squatter than that.

    The cells in that device are probably also at least some in series, which would be alternating directions like you see with many alkaline battery setups. That thing puts out 120V AC and I expect the battery pack voltage is around 50-100V DC. That is a pretty beefy portable power pack. I got one to jump start my ICE when it was sitting in the driveway unused for a few months after getting my Model S. But the one I got was much smaller, only capable of one start of the car (and 12V DC max output) before it was pretty much flat.
     
  12. scaesare

    scaesare Well-Known Member

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    Ah, Okashira is the person I saw doing cell test previously. And wk057 has done some as well. Pretty robust little suckers!

    Thanks for the additional info... I'll be interested in what you see with the Si anode cells.
     

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