At what point do I say enough is enough?

[DaveTilly]

Model X 90D took delivery May 2017.

Just recieved it back from being at the SC for approx 2 weeks. This is its second trip to the SC. Collected and loaner supplied on this 2nd time which was appreciated.

Since the initial trip to the SC, I have been building a list by sending emails to myself with time and date stamps on everything niggle/issue we have been having.

A few weeks ago, the car whilst in auto pilot suddenly swerved across the motorway into the middle lane. I caught it half way accross. The motorway was perfect. (interestingly at a supercharger, I asked the guy next to me if this had ever happened to him, and he said 'funnily enough, it had and just that very day for the first time' (thats not a coincidence surely) This was the final straw so I sent it off. Sat Nav, Auto Pilot, wont lock, returning to car with door open, doesnt present doors some of the time, doors dont close some of the time, screen goes black, etc etc etc. It acts with the consistancy of a small child, yet its supposed to be software driven.

I love the overall tech of the car, the fact its electric and the overall design, but having spent £111k on my Model X, I feel constantly upset, annoyed and to be honest like I have been wripped off. Should I keep with it and support Tesla and sack it off and maybe get one in a few years when/if they produce a more stable version.

The autopilot issue is my biggest concern. The guy I spoke to who said his had done the same that day, said his drove towards a lorry. I thought it wasnt supposed to do that as it has sensors? It was very windy that day so I wonder if that was anything to do with it, either way Tesla were so conccerned about it, they didnt even bother to take the details of this guy when I raised this issue to them.

I have asked them where I stand on getting money back, or requesting a brand new car as I reckon I have been sold the Friday model!

 

[DrivingTheFuture]

Model X 90D took delivery May 2017.

Just recieved it back from being at the SC for approx 2 weeks. This is its second trip to the SC. Collected and loaner supplied on this 2nd time which was appreciated.

Since the initial trip to the SC, I have been building a list by sending emails to myself with time and date stamps on everything niggle/issue we have been having.

A few weeks ago, the car whilst in auto pilot suddenly swerved across the motorway into the middle lane. I caught it half way accross. The motorway was perfect. (interestingly at a supercharger, I asked the guy next to me if this had ever happened to him, and he said 'funnily enough, it had and just that very day for the first time' (thats not a coincidence surely) This was the final straw so I sent it off. Sat Nav, Auto Pilot, wont lock, returning to car with door open, doesnt present doors some of the time, doors dont close some of the time, screen goes black, etc etc etc. It acts with the consistancy of a small child, yet its supposed to be software driven.

I love the overall tech of the car, the fact its electric and the overall design, but having spent £111k on my Model X, I feel constantly upset, annoyed and to be honest like I have been wripped off. Should I keep with it and support Tesla and sack it off and maybe get one in a few years when/if they produce a more stable version.

The autopilot issue is my biggest concern. The guy I spoke to who said his had done the same that day, said his drove towards a lorry. I thought it wasnt supposed to do that as it has sensors? It was very windy that day so I wonder if that was anything to do with it, either way Tesla were so conccerned about it, they didnt even bother to take the details of this guy when I raised this issue to them.

I have asked them where I stand on getting money back, or requesting a brand new car as I reckon I have been sold the Friday model!

Be patient... I understand your frustrations as you paid 20k more for your Model X than we did for ours... And we had some issues. But over time they have made everything right, and our car operates near perfectly now. The autopilot issue you describe happens to many drivers utilizing the feature, even when there seems to be no obvious obstacle or lack of road lines. Ive come to appreciate the convenience but still keep a watchful eye as much as I can when using Autopilot. Be kind to your local service center staff and sales rep, these issues are most likely not their fault. Also, if you feel like you are not being taken care of or getting things fixed, you can always log in to your my Tesla account and escalate the issue.

 

[DaveTilly]

Be patient... I understand your frustrations as you paid 20k more for your Model X than we did for ours... And we had some issues. But over time they have made everything right, and our car operates near perfectly now. The autopilot issue you describe happens to many drivers utilizing the feature, even when there seems to be no obvious obstacle or lack of road lines. Ive come to appreciate the convenience but still keep a watchful eye as much as I can when using Autopilot. Be kind to your local service center staff and sales rep, these issues are most likely not their fault. Also, if you feel like you are not being taken care of or getting things fixed, you can always log in to your my Tesla account and escalate the issue.

Thanks. Taking your comments on board. Its good to hear they fixed it eventually.

 

[scottf200]

A few weeks ago, the car whilst in auto pilot suddenly swerved across the motorway into the middle lane. I caught it half way accross. <snip>

Half way across? Does that mean your hands were not on the steering wheel? In my 25K miles of auto-pilot I've had it react odd a few times but even if I was glancing at the center display I could feel the steering wheel do something odd and I just tightened grip to stop it. I've never left the lane.

 

[DaveTilly]

Half way across? Does that mean your hands were not on the steering wheel? In my 25K miles of auto-pilot I've had it react odd a few times but even if I was glancing at the center display I could feel the steering wheel do something odd and I just tightened grip to stop it. I've never left the lane.

Yeah i had it but very lightly. I appreciate a lot more now that it cannot be trusted. With this in mind it still works most of the time okay. But still its going back for fix attempt number three.

 

[Tam]

...it cannot be trusted...

Now, that is the right spirit with Autopilot!

When I first got it, I didn't have my hands on the steering wheel but then I quickly learned that it's still beta so I got at least one of my hands on the steering wheel slightly against its torque to monitor its steering.

Because I can feel its torque, its steering at all times with my hand(s) so I immediately know when its steering is wrong and I would effortlessly correct it.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

A few weeks ago, the car whilst in auto pilot suddenly swerved across the motorway into the middle lane.

My car followed a lead car to the left-side lane - and only stopped around middle over the lane line, then fidgeted left-right-left there before disabling with a gong.

One of the most unfortunate aspects to AP2 has been its nature to get better and worse over the updates. The .36 update was pretty solid for me on one road. Then again the previous update was the one that crossed lanes and once wanted to follow a tar line into concrete blocks on the side of the road (instead of following lane markers).

The .40 update receives mixed reactions again, some saying it is much better, while others reporting worse experiences... I am a bit hesitant to use it, so I haven't got much experiences of that version yet.

 

[DaveTilly]

My car followed a lead car to the left-side lane - and only stopped around middle over the lane line, then fidgeted left-right-left there before disabling with a gong.

One of the most unfortunate aspects to AP2 has been its nature to get better and worse over the updates. The .36 update was pretty solid for me on one road. Then again the previous update was the one that crossed lanes and once wanted to follow a tar line into concrete blocks on the side of the road (instead of following lane markers).

The .40 update receives mixed reactions again, some saying it is much better, while others reporting worse experiences... I am a bit hesitant to use it, so I haven't got much experiences of that version yet.

Hmmm thats very interesting thanks mate.

 

[DaveTilly]

Yea if everyone’s done his or her homework (knowing every single detail of tesla track record) no one would buy a Tesla other than the fanboys.

Basic homework? I don’t think you’d know enough about Tesla by doing “basic” homework.

You wont know enough by doing it either. At least not by asking Tesla as they flat our refuse to answer fundementals like battery degradation. Or at what % would they deem the battery no longer fit for purpose so its actual warranty is meaningless if this is not defined. Which they would not disclose.

 

[roblab]

Yea if everyone’s done his or her homework (knowing every single detail of tesla track record) no one would buy a Tesla other than the fanboys.

Basic homework? I don’t think you’d know enough about Tesla by doing “basic” homework.

As a teacher, I find that most people don't do "basic" homework. As in maybe 80-90%. They think they know everything because they owned a car before, and "basically" there's nothing like it. They know nothing about charging, range estimates, etc. A friend of mine ran out of battery power on the way to his house, died a mile away. Why???? Well, after 80,000 miles, he "thought" he could make it. Then he called triple A and was astounded that their little gas generator wouldn't charge the car enough to get home. Heck, the car refused to accept any power from the thing. It did, however charge his 12 volt (which won't recharge when the big battery is dead) so he could put it in tow mode, which the flatbed driver knew about, at least.

In my mind, this is all basic.

The trouble is, there's a very large amount of basic homework.

 

[roblab]

You wont know enough by doing it either. At least not by asking Tesla as they flat our refuse to answer fundementals like battery degradation. Or at what % would they deem the battery no longer fit for purpose so its actual warranty is meaningless if this is not defined. Which they would not disclose.

Depends on who you talk to. Tesla and others have done thousands of miles of research. Much has been posted on this forum. They used to say they expected 7% of degradation in ten years, but it's much lower than that, so they don't figure it's worth knowing. They have said years ago that 30% degradation would yield the battery not satisfactory, but you will never see that. The battery degradation curve is steepest in the first year and tapers off to a near flat line from there on out.

Since the battery is only warranted for about eight years, I am not surprised they don't warn each new owner about battery degradation. The Tesla battery is not like anything people have been used to before, so if someone feels like they need security after their lead acid battery died, well, you don't. I have read other concerns people worry over, which is one reason I counsel worriers to buy a Toyota, or something they understand. Let early adopters figure it out, and jump in the pool when you see that it's safe.

 

[Tam]

...Or at what % would they deem the battery no longer fit for purpose so its actual warranty is meaningless if this is not defined. Which they would not disclose.

Salespeople are knowledgeable in some areas but may be not in others.

Could it be that they read about:

Tesla deemed as the worst warranty deal in Norway

Below is a partial copy of the thread:

"Technically, best warranty is Volkswagen 70% to up to 160,000 km.

Now, for reality shock: Read what happened to Tesloop Taxi service at 200,000 miles or 320,000 km when its owner said its capacity has lost 6% but the battery gauge was inaccurate and off 10 miles (the car would power down when the battery gauge says you still have 10 more miles): Tesla got them another battery for free!

That's a replacement for 94% capacity!

If I want to choose between a technical win of 160,000 km on paper and the actual coverage at 320,000 km, I would pick the reality one any time!"

Tesla main battery warranty is very clear: It does not cover degradation but it does cover failures.

Reduced battery capacity could be:

1) normal time and usage wear and tear,

2) a failed cell, brick or module.

So others like Volkswagen would not replace Tesloop Taxi's battery because it still has 94% capacity but Tesla does because a cell or module fails that brought the capacity down to 94%.

You can even find out your battery health and which one fails with your TM-Spy app

Here's a sample @garygid's picture of the voltages for 96 bricks (x74 cells each =7,104 cells total) with only about 4 millivolts difference:

 

[McRat]

What does the best gasoline car cost? 2.4 million Euros.

It lacks Autopilot, and is not quicker from 0 kph to 100 kph than a Tesla.

But the reality is that EV's have superior drivetrains than ICE options.

A Tesla Model S 75D is a better daily driver than a Bugatti Chiron due to it's electromotive drivetrain. Full tank every morning, no drama, deadly quick at random requests for acceleration. The P100D is much quicker still.

BTW - What would you buy with a better Autopilot system than a Tesla has?

 

[idleuser]

What does the best gasoline car cost? 2.4 million Euros.

It lacks Autopilot, and is not quicker from 0 kph to 100 kph than a Tesla.

But the reality is that EV's have superior drivetrains than ICE options.

A Tesla Model S 75D is a better daily driver than a Bugatti Chiron due to it's electromotive drivetrain. Full tank every morning, no drama, deadly quick at random requests for acceleration. The P100D is much quicker still.

BTW - What would you buy with a better Autopilot system than a Tesla has?

The autopilot game has changed. Chevy Super Cruise, bmw assistant plus package ( search up BMW X3 propilot on you tube) Nissan pilot assistance’s. IMO, Tesla squander their lead in autopilot by switching to AP2 before it was ready.

You also can’t compare a Bugatti to a Tesla. They’re not even in the same class.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@McRat

That's a very, very narrow definition, though. For example, there's plenty of drama e.g. if you are a travelling salesman or don't have home/work charging. And ICEs still beat BEVs on many charge ranges and speed ranges... and handling. I don't dispute the benefits of home/work charging or the superior acceleration of EV drivetrains, I just dislike hyperbole.

As for Autopilot, well, the drama is self-evident.

Tesla isn't everything for everyone yet, that much is certain. One is going to have to accept a certain level of crapness in the experience, which in return will reward you with the unique benefits of large-battery BEV.

 

[vandacca]

Depends on who you talk to. Tesla and others have done thousands of miles of research. Much has been posted on this forum. They used to say they expected 7% of degradation in ten years, but it's much lower than that, so they don't figure it's worth knowing. They have said years ago that 30% degradation would yield the battery not satisfactory, but you will never see that. The battery degradation curve is steepest in the first year and tapers off to a near flat line from there on out.

Since the battery is only warranted for about eight years, I am not surprised they don't warn each new owner about battery degradation. The Tesla battery is not like anything people have been used to before, so if someone feels like they need security after their lead acid battery died, well, you don't. I have read other concerns people worry over, which is one reason I counsel worriers to buy a Toyota, or something they understand. Let early adopters figure it out, and jump in the pool when you see that it's safe.

I just wanted to point out that you cannot use the battery indicator as a precise indicator of State Of Charge (SOC) and therefore use it to accurately determine battery degradation. The SOC is based on an algorithm that is attempting to estimate the SOC (based on average cell voltage), since there is no precise way to measure SOC.

This is very evident at times when you drain the battery below 10% (and then charging to 100% again) you seem to magically gain more range. It's just the algorithm resetting itself. A 6% degradation before a major discharge could be reduced to a 3% degradation afterwards.

Trying to precisely determine battery degradation is like trying to determine the max RPM in a muscle car during a drag race by looking at the tachometer needle as it's wildly vibrating between 6000 RPM and 7000 RPM.

The only real accurate solution is to collect statistics and monitor it over a long period of time (eg. 4-6 months).

 

[McRat]

The autopilot game has changed. Chevy Super Cruise, bmw assistant plus package ( search up BMW X3 propilot on you tube) Nissan pilot assistance’s. IMO, Tesla squander their lead in autopilot by switching to AP2 before it was ready.

You also can’t compare a Bugatti to a Tesla. They’re not even in the same class.

First there is no Cadillac Super Cruise yet. Soon, but not yet. No auto-steering system is excellent yet, and many high performance cars do not even have an option for it. Tesla is certainly in the running with AP2 warts and all.

When you are comparing acceleration at street speeds, yes, the Bugattis are in the same class with Tesla P models, especially when instant response is required, and you don't have to be ultra-rich, famous, or royalty to actually buy a Tesla.

But, since he ordered a P90D Model X, you'd need to compare it to other 600+ HP AWD SUVs available.
The MB AMG G65 pushes 621HP, but takes over 5 seconds to hit 60mph, and over 13 seconds to cover a quarter mile. It's >$219,000 USD stripped.
Soon, there will be another SUV that has nearly the performance of a P90D. The 2018 Jeep with 707HP and high 11 second performance. Availability at this point in unknown, it will start at about $90k. But the P90D still is quicker in real world situations.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that the P90D/P100D is unique and at the top of the food chain if you are looking for a quick car. And it's not $200k.

Is the P90D flawless? Hell no. Are there cars with auto-steering, more luxury, and better QC? Yup. Are they cheaper? Hmmm... it depends if you place a value on performance. If you value performance, no, there is nothing that costs less. It is the bargain basement of hypercars. And it's got all the advantages that EVs have over gas engines.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

It is the bargain basement of hypercars.

Sometimes I wonder about this. Is Model X a hypercar. Or even a supercar? I guess I've too made the point that it kind of is, because one definition is that it is an insane and crazy design, and Model X certainly is, and in some ways it does have the performance to match. (See: Model X appreciation post)

But in other ways it doesn't feel like one. There's some madness to the method, but is there really madness on the motorway. Is it too mundane and too composed to be in such an elite group? Probably. And there simply are too many of them.

Perhaps that is the biggest problem with BEV performance. Not exclusivity as in being part of a club, but the power seeming so easy. Like it isn't that much of an achievement, really. One day soon everyone will have 700 horsepower. Put in a bigger battery and you'll have 1000+.

I certainly don't feel like I'm driving a supercar or hypercar when I drive my P100D - or when I look at it on the driveway. The performance feels almost boring by now. I've driven quick cars for a long time, one gets used to it. But this time I've come to the realization that this technological revolution means soon everyone will have this performance. The game has changed and thus the goalposts have moved.

The part that still makes me giddy a bit is the crazy part, that's the falcon wings and the six-seat "pull a chair out" layout. That's still a bit special and I haven't gotten used to it. Those are the moments that it feels a bit super.

But the biggest kick I still get is when I plug in the charger. That really is the special bit here. Everything else (performance included), execept the doors, flow from that special bit. That's the Tesla achievement.

 

[McRat]

Sometimes I wonder about this. Is Model X a hypercar. Or even a supercar? I guess I've too made the point that it kind of is, because one definition is that it is an insane and crazy design, and Model X certainly is, and in some ways it does have the performance to match. (See: Model X appreciation post)

But in other ways it doesn't feel like one. There's some madness to the method, but is there really madness on the motorway. Is it too mundane and too composed to be in such an elite group? Probably. And there simply are too many of them.

Perhaps that is the biggest problem with BEV performance. Not exclusivity as in being part of a club, but the power seeming so easy. Like it isn't that much of an achievement, really. One day soon everyone will have 700 horsepower. Put in a bigger battery and you'll have 1000+.

I certainly don't feel like I'm driving a supercar or hypercar when I drive my P100D - or when I look at it on the driveway. The performance feels almost boring by now. I've driven quick cars for a long time, one gets used to it. But this time I've come to the realization that this technological revolution means soon everyone will have this performance. The game has changed and thus the goalposts have moved.

The part that still makes me giddy a bit is the crazy part, that's the falcon wings and the six-seat "pull a chair out" layout. That's still a bit special and I haven't gotten used to it. Those are the moments that it feels a bit super.

But the biggest kick I still get is when I plug in the charger. That really is the special bit here. Everything else (performance included), execept the doors, flow from that special bit. That's the Tesla achievement.

My take on it how a P series Tesla fits into the performance world.

Without too much about Exotic vs Supercar (they are not the same, the exotic MUST be rare, the Supercar CAN be rare):

It was not too long ago that in order to drag race a car that was quicker than 12.000 seconds in the 1/4 mile, you needed to weld in a rollbar, install a 5-point racing harness, and wear a fire jacket and helmet. Seems silly right? No, it was based on accidents at the track that could be expected based on track official's experience.

Cars were classified by their construction which defined their risk.
Up to 14.000 seconds was considered a fairly stock normal production car. You needed nothing.
Cars up to 12.000 seconds were considered to be modified, or rare special high performance versions. You needed a helmet.
Cars quicker than that were not stock. Regardless of urban myths, those big block terrors of the 1960's could seldom get into the 12's and certainly not 11's. They were lightened, added HP, and squirrelly. Rolling over was real risk as was catching fire. So you had to have a rollbar, fire jacket, and harness. Cars blew up all the time, and often hit the rail when they did.

So what is a Supercar? The Ferrari F40 is a Supercar. 1.01g laterally, and 12.1@122mph and 197mph was the fastest stock vehicle available in 1992 in the USA. Magazine editors were terrified of it. It was a real race car with a license plate. It's production numbers and price made it Exotic, and yes, it WAS a Supercar. But still not quick enough to need a rollbar and harness.

Up to 120 mph, a P90D/P100D will outrun it at any speed. And if the NHRA rules weren't changed, it would need a rollbar.
It's ability to rocket up to 60mph door to door with today's 200+ mph Exotic Hypercars means that outside a road course, it is certainly 'hyper'. Thing is, once you're on the track, nothing is usually stock, and most cars are trailered even with license plates on them. It becomes a contest of who has the skills and the wallet, not what car you picked to start with.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@McRat I guess for me the hypercar still has connotations beyond mere performance. It has to be special otherwise too, to fit.

As said, I did label Model X a supercar in the past, but I'm not sure how fitting that was. It is fast and it is crazy, but I guess it still kind of misses the thing that combines these things in a super or hyper caresque way for me, for me to really think that...

Now, Rimac Concept One, that is easy to consider a hypercar.