Atheists, Agnostics, Religion and Spirituality ... oh my

[PopSmith]

Because. Logic. FAIL.

I'm sorry if I offended you. I was simply stating that people seemed to jump to the "no worship = atheist" conclusion.

I'm not sure there is a real distinction since neither an agnostic nor atheist believes in god. A-theist means "without god".

As far as I'm aware an agnostic person doesn't believe in a specific higher-power but isn't against the idea one. An atheist believes that there is no higher-power of any sort.

 

[bonnie]

You'll notice that I have carefully NOT laid out my personal opinion - but here's some of it: Discussing religion inevitably devolves into 'I'm right and you're wrong'. We're already there, folks. When people feel the need to defend their way of thinking, I have to wonder why. I'm comfortable in my belief system (or lack there of) and I'm fine with what the rest of you choose to believe or not believe. We all walk our own paths in this life and I do happen to believe there is more than one *right path*.

Besides, the universe is expanding.

 

[JRP3]

As far as I'm aware an agnostic person doesn't believe in a specific higher-power but isn't against the idea one. An atheist believes that there is no higher-power of any sort.

Neither one of us believes in a higher power, but neither one of us would deny it's existence if confronted by one. I think it highly unlikely that one exists and as I've said I see no reason for one to exist, or any evidence of such, but there is always a chance I could be wrong, however miniscule :wink:

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When people feel the need to defend their way of thinking, I have to wonder why.

Isn't that the whole point of a discussion board, to present ideas, and if necessary explain them?

 

[kvietor]

Wow! I feel like I'm about to lose brownie points for starting this thread.:scared:

 

[PopSmith]

Isn't that the whole point of a discussion board, to present ideas, and if necessary explain them?

I would think so. However, as Bonnie is pointing out, topics such as religion are often vehemently defended by the various sides. As a result most boards ban the discussion of such topics except for under specific forums (i.e. off-topic).

Wow! I feel like I'm about to lose brownie points for starting this thread.:scared:

The comments went their course because Musk made an off-hand comment during the "lightning round" questions. I honestly thought nothing of it until I read the comments. :redface:

 

[bonnie]

Isn't that the whole point of a discussion board, to present ideas, and if necessary explain them?

You know exactly what I meant. But in case you really didn't, let me clarify: Several posts in this thread are not focused on explaining why someone feels the way they do - there is a twist of 'and you're wrong if you feel differently'. If you don't know what I'm talking about, read through and see all the simplistic definitions of agnostic, atheist, religious, spiritual, etc. This is a complex topic and speaking in generalities is bound to not end well.

The point of teslamotorsclub.com is to present ideas about cars, specifically EVs and related topics. Not every forum on the internet is meant to be a catch all for any topic that anyone wants to discuss. However, that said (and as I originally pointed out), we have an Off-Topic thread precisely for that purpose. So I'm going to move these posts over there shortly. Including mine.

 

[bonnie]

... and she did.

 

[GSP]

Since we are now in the off-topic thread, I would like to comment on "what happened before the Big Bang." Since the Big Bang was the beginning of space-time, there is no time "before" then. An analogy would be to try to find land south of the South Pole. There isn't any.

GSP

 

[Grendal]

Since we are now in the off-topic thread, I would like to comment on "what happened before the Big Bang." Since the Big Bang was the beginning of space-time, there is no time "before" then. An analogy would be to try to find land south of the South Pole. There isn't any.

GSP

That's only based on current science. There are already different big bang theories or universe creation theories even in science. The Big Bang Theory is only the most popular at the moment.

An older question would be, how many angels fit on the head of a pin?

And if you haven't seen it, I highly recommend the series "The Day the Universe Changed" by James Burke. It is a documentary series on how inventions in history changed the way human beings perceive the world.

Holy crap! I just discovered the entire series is on YouTube. Here is the first episode:

James Burke, The Day The Universe Changed: 1 - YouTube

 

[NigelM]

This is a complex topic and speaking in generalities is bound to not end well.

The point of teslamotorsclub.com is to present ideas about cars, specifically EVs and related topics. Not every forum on the internet is meant to be a catch all for any topic that anyone wants to discuss..

Amen!

 

[Yggdrasill]

It's important to remember that "atheist" and "theist" aren't very descriptive labels. It's perfectly possible to be an atheist and believe in heaven and hell (perhaps not the christian version, but some version), angels, demons, ghosts, magical crystals, psychics, etc.

Atheism describes one of two things:

1. A lack of belief in god/gods.
2. A belief there is no god/gods.

(The former being "weak" atheism and the latter being "strong" atheism.)

With this in mind, saying someone is an atheist really doesn't say much about them, just as saying someone is a theist really doesn't say much about them.



Also, gnosticism/agnosticism deals with knowledge, not belief, so gnosticism/agnosticism is perfectly compatible with theism/atheism.

If one is an agnostic weak atheist, one basically says "I don't believe there are any gods, but I can certainly be proved wrong. Ultimately, I don't know."

If one is an agnostic strong atheist, one basically says "I believe there are no gods, but I can certainly be proved wrong. Ultimately, I don't know."

I'm not sure if gnosticism is compatible with weak atheism. It has to be something like "I know that the answer to whether there are gods is unknowable, so I don't believe in gods."

If one is a gnostic strong atheist, one basically says "I know there are no gods."

If one is an agnostic theist, one basically says "I believe in god(s), but I can certainly be proved wrong. Ultimately, I don't know."

If one is a gnostic theist, one basically says "I know god(s) exist."

 

[GSP]

That's only based on current science. There are already different big bang theories or universe creation theories even in science. The Big Bang Theory is only the most popular at the moment.

An older question would be, how many angels fit on the head of a pin?

And if you haven't seen it, I highly recommend the series "The Day the Universe Changed" by James Burke. It is a documentary series on how inventions in history changed the way human beings perceive the world.

Holy crap! I just discovered the entire series is on YouTube. Here is the first episode:

James Burke, The Day The Universe Changed: 1 - YouTube

Yes, I was intending to interpret the current science, since I don't have access to future science yet.

GSP

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It's important to remember that "atheist" and "theist" aren't very descriptive labels. It's perfectly possible to be an atheist and believe in heaven and hell (perhaps not the christian version, but some version), angels, demons, ghosts, magical crystals, psychics, etc.

Atheism describes one of two things:

1. A lack of belief in god/gods.
2. A belief there is no god/gods.

(The former being "weak" atheism and the latter being "strong" atheism.)

With this in mind, saying someone is an atheist really doesn't say much about them, just as saying someone is a theist really doesn't say much about them.



Also, gnosticism/agnosticism deals with knowledge, not belief, so gnosticism/agnosticism is perfectly compatible with theism/atheism.

If one is an agnostic weak atheist, one basically says "I don't believe there are any gods, but I can certainly be proved wrong. Ultimately, I don't know."

If one is an agnostic strong atheist, one basically says "I believe there are no gods, but I can certainly be proved wrong. Ultimately, I don't know."

I'm not sure if gnosticism is compatible with weak atheism. It has to be something like "I know that the answer to whether there are gods is unknowable, so I don't believe in gods."

If one is a gnostic strong atheist, one basically says "I know there are no gods."

If one is an agnostic theist, one basically says "I believe in god(s), but I can certainly be proved wrong. Ultimately, I don't know."

If one is a gnostic theist, one basically says "I know god(s) exist."

Nice summary. Thanks.

GSP

 

[lolachampcar]

The population of this planet fits under the bell concept. There is no left without a right. There is no religion without a contrast (call it science if you like). In short, I define myself partially by the yardsticks around me and partially by my own frame of reference. I would no more cut religion or science out of the picture then I would cut off one of my arms.

As a society, we seem to be moving more and more to polarization. The job of politics has become to drive a wedge between people then make sure your pile of people is bigger than the other guy's; its good for war but useless for governing. I believe the same goes for the personal interaction between science and religion. Both are valid and I reject the idea that one must go.

 

[JRP3]

Since we are now in the off-topic thread, I would like to comment on "what happened before the Big Bang." Since the Big Bang was the beginning of space-time, there is no time "before" then. An analogy would be to try to find land south of the South Pole. There isn't any.

GSP

But remember the land at the south pole was once located farther north :wink: Unless you think something can come into existence from nothing then elements of the current universe had to exist before the Big Bang.

 

[NigelM]

Unless you think something can come into existence from nothing then elements of the current universe had to exist before the Big Bang.

So what was there before the big bang?

 

[carrerascott]

To bring a little lightheartedness to this, a new classic from Steve Martin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wogta8alHiU

 

[JRP3]

The population of this planet fits under the bell concept. There is no left without a right. There is no religion without a contrast (call it science if you like).

I'm not sure I follow, if everyone on the planet believed in god that would not mean there is no religion.

As a society, we seem to be moving more and more to polarization. The job of politics has become to drive a wedge between people then make sure your pile of people is bigger than the other guy's; its good for war but useless for governing. I believe the same goes for the personal interaction between science and religion. Both are valid and I reject the idea that one must go.

Ideas in direct conflict cannot both be valid. Example, when we see people posting things about EV's which we know not to be true what do we do? We try to correct those errors because we know they are not compatible with reality. If someone thinks EV's will pollute more than ICE's, will crash the grid, and that they will explode and catch fire, they are certainly entitled to that opinion. When they try to push that view onto others as if it's the truth and influence policy and opinion we take efforts to counter those misconceptions that we know are in conflict with reality.

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So what was there before the big bang?

I don't know. There are a number of different theories that are quite interesting and I think eventually we might figure it out, but the important part in my opinion is to acknowledged that it's ok not to have an answer to that question and that filling in the blank with "God" is no more of an answer than leaving it blank.

 

[Doug_G]

So what was there before the big bang?

See Eternal inflation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hopefully I didn't just take an Off Topic post off topic...

 

[Grendal]

Words of wisdom from Dustin Hoffman to his son from the movie "Hero."

Hero At The Zoo - YouTube

"You remember when I said how I was gonna explain about life, buddy? Well the thing about life is, it gets weird. People are always talking to ya about truth. Everybody always knows what the truth is, like it was toilet paper or somethin', and they got a supply in the closet. But what you learn, as you get older, is there ain't no truth. All there is is bullshit, pardon my vulgarity here. Layers of it. One layer of bullshit on top of another. And what you do in life like when you get older is, you pick the layer of bullshit that you prefer and that's your bullshit, so to speak."

 

[lolachampcar]

JRP3,
If everyone believed in God then no, there would be no religion. Without a reference, there is no measurement. As you sit at your computer, are you stationary or hurling around the sun?

And yes, there are absolute rights and wrongs. I'm just not willing to tell someone with a different belief set (in the form of religion) that they are wrong. Now if they want to tell me that the laws of thermodynamics are wrong then I will simply smile and walk away.

Grendal,
+1 on the BS. I simply tell my daughter the older I get the more I realize how little I know.