Thumper
Active Member
Now that production cars are out, has anyone taken delivery with the standard sound package? How do you like it?
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Audio: Sound System Quality?
- Thread starter STxTesla
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- Model S User Interface
SCW-Greg
Active Member
I have that same question... Anyone receive a standard stereo system? Or I wonder, anyone order standard, but TM upgraded you to the premium sound package? Would you know the difference if they didn't tell you? Could this be an item for delivery delay otherwise?
If you have received std sound package, how does it sound? Are the controls different? EQ?
elreydetodo
Member
I was just at the White Plains, NY store yesterday for a test drive (I'm #14,427). While I was waiting I sat in a Model S with the permium audio system and all the windows up. I have mixed feeling about this system. Fore warning: I'm pretty good at detecting audio anomolies, and although I don't always know the right vocabulary to describe what I hear, I know when it doesn't sound right. This system didn't quite sound right to me.
The treble was very tinny, which was easy to correct by lowering the equalizer adjustment to -1.5 or -2. The overall sound was alright, not spectacular. Intensity seemed alright (I read someone else say they didn't like it). I found I liked the equalizer best at bass +2, mid +1, treble -1.5. This was very preliminary testing just using some of the media stored on the car already. I picked a couple songs I recognized, but not ones I thought I knew well enough to expertly detect sound anomolies.
My main problem was the focal point of the audio: it seemed to be focused on a very specific point in the cabin, where I would expect a well staged system to make the audio sound like it's coming from all around you. There was not very good stereo separation, no sense of left-side and right-side playback. That might have just be the songs I picked to play, it's hard to be sure. I could make just the driver seat sound a little better by adjusting the balance and fade, but that left all the rest of the seats "out of focus".
In my current car I've replaced the factory amp with a JBL MS-8. It measuers sound from each seat (using an included stereo microphone unit you wear on your head) and makes mathmatical adjustments to each channel based on what it hears. What what I have read, it adjusts wave phase, channel delay, and I don't know what else. It is a fine piece or hardware, costs about $800. I originally planned an all-out system upgrade, but after hearing the magic this little box could do with the factory speakers it turned out to not even be necessary. I read up on audio transformations, staging techniquies, and the Logic 7 algorithm. All I can say is that it's the blackest kind of magic I've ever tried to understand, and I'm the sort of person who can describe in detail how almost everything in your car, home or office is constructed and works.
I think it would be a good idea for Tesla to get a sound engineer in from Dolby, Bose, or even JBL to look at the car's audio staging. I don't know exactly what the amp is like for this thing (anyone have details?!), or what sort of DSP logic is/can be implemented in the head unit, but from what I've seen in the rest of the car I would expect they can probably implement a software DSP (digital signal processor) at somewhere along the audio pipeline to correctly "stage" it. After all, there's already a Dolby Pro Logic DSP in there somewhere. It would be nice to know if that's a hardware or software implementation.. anyone happen to know? Regardless, it's probably the case that a firmware upgrade in the future can fix what I'm hearing. I still plan to get the premium audio system, but I hope it eventually starts sounding better than it currently does.
If anyone from Tesla reads this - I'd love to get involved in trying to fix this. I'm willing to invest some time and money in trying to make the system sound better for all Model S owners. Of course, first I have to get mine ;-)
The treble was very tinny, which was easy to correct by lowering the equalizer adjustment to -1.5 or -2. The overall sound was alright, not spectacular. Intensity seemed alright (I read someone else say they didn't like it). I found I liked the equalizer best at bass +2, mid +1, treble -1.5. This was very preliminary testing just using some of the media stored on the car already. I picked a couple songs I recognized, but not ones I thought I knew well enough to expertly detect sound anomolies.
My main problem was the focal point of the audio: it seemed to be focused on a very specific point in the cabin, where I would expect a well staged system to make the audio sound like it's coming from all around you. There was not very good stereo separation, no sense of left-side and right-side playback. That might have just be the songs I picked to play, it's hard to be sure. I could make just the driver seat sound a little better by adjusting the balance and fade, but that left all the rest of the seats "out of focus".
In my current car I've replaced the factory amp with a JBL MS-8. It measuers sound from each seat (using an included stereo microphone unit you wear on your head) and makes mathmatical adjustments to each channel based on what it hears. What what I have read, it adjusts wave phase, channel delay, and I don't know what else. It is a fine piece or hardware, costs about $800. I originally planned an all-out system upgrade, but after hearing the magic this little box could do with the factory speakers it turned out to not even be necessary. I read up on audio transformations, staging techniquies, and the Logic 7 algorithm. All I can say is that it's the blackest kind of magic I've ever tried to understand, and I'm the sort of person who can describe in detail how almost everything in your car, home or office is constructed and works.
I think it would be a good idea for Tesla to get a sound engineer in from Dolby, Bose, or even JBL to look at the car's audio staging. I don't know exactly what the amp is like for this thing (anyone have details?!), or what sort of DSP logic is/can be implemented in the head unit, but from what I've seen in the rest of the car I would expect they can probably implement a software DSP (digital signal processor) at somewhere along the audio pipeline to correctly "stage" it. After all, there's already a Dolby Pro Logic DSP in there somewhere. It would be nice to know if that's a hardware or software implementation.. anyone happen to know? Regardless, it's probably the case that a firmware upgrade in the future can fix what I'm hearing. I still plan to get the premium audio system, but I hope it eventually starts sounding better than it currently does.
If anyone from Tesla reads this - I'd love to get involved in trying to fix this. I'm willing to invest some time and money in trying to make the system sound better for all Model S owners. Of course, first I have to get mine ;-)
I don't think you can compare the sound systems in the test drive cars to the sound system in the production cars. The test cars are literally the first cars off the production line and have a number of differences to the cars that are now delivered.
and i'll make another point.. the last thing that should happen, the last thing that i want to see happen, is more audio dsp/room correction on this to make up for a poorly designed system and cheap parts..
the way to make a great sounding audio system, and i've been doing it my whole life--cars, homes, feature films in huge auditoriums--is to use the best quality components you can get your hands on, an amp with the largest, cleanest capacitors and xformers, the purest copper and silver wire, the most well-designed speakers using the highest quality components, place them thoughtfully taking the space into account, then pick a clean source, analog if that's your thing, or digital with a very clean, flat d/a, burr brown, cirrus, etc... and get the hell out of the way of the signal. no fake logic 7, no multichannel audio silliness.. no cathedral dsp programs, no 12 band parametric eq... just get the room response as flat as you can, zero in is zero out... and enjoy the music. adding more correction into what sounds to me like an obviously under-designed, cheap component car audio system is just trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. if tm really designed their own speakers and amp... i'd say that was stupid. it's an art and many companies have spent years perfecting it. they may have thought they'd save a buck making a 'decent' set of components from bulk oem parts from taiwan, but they should have sourced really good components from established manufacturers and left it at that. there is no reason this $100k car shouldn't have a sound system to knock your socks off. and not for that much money. honestly. the more complaints i hear, the more annoyed i get. this should have been a no brainer.. they want to compete w bmw, mb, aston martin... well... don't slip up on this point. there's no reason for it.
the way to make a great sounding audio system, and i've been doing it my whole life--cars, homes, feature films in huge auditoriums--is to use the best quality components you can get your hands on, an amp with the largest, cleanest capacitors and xformers, the purest copper and silver wire, the most well-designed speakers using the highest quality components, place them thoughtfully taking the space into account, then pick a clean source, analog if that's your thing, or digital with a very clean, flat d/a, burr brown, cirrus, etc... and get the hell out of the way of the signal. no fake logic 7, no multichannel audio silliness.. no cathedral dsp programs, no 12 band parametric eq... just get the room response as flat as you can, zero in is zero out... and enjoy the music. adding more correction into what sounds to me like an obviously under-designed, cheap component car audio system is just trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. if tm really designed their own speakers and amp... i'd say that was stupid. it's an art and many companies have spent years perfecting it. they may have thought they'd save a buck making a 'decent' set of components from bulk oem parts from taiwan, but they should have sourced really good components from established manufacturers and left it at that. there is no reason this $100k car shouldn't have a sound system to knock your socks off. and not for that much money. honestly. the more complaints i hear, the more annoyed i get. this should have been a no brainer.. they want to compete w bmw, mb, aston martin... well... don't slip up on this point. there's no reason for it.
I was having a similar experience and stated so to the product rep and they said that Dolby was turned on and that the new Dolby didn't sound so good to them and suggested I turn it off... it made all the difference to turn it off, I wouldn't say it was the best listening experience I've ever had but it was very nice, and as I've heard said, very "accurate". I think I have fallen for the unnatural level of base in a lot of today's systems. JBL seems to have nailed the sound that I like the most. I doubt the JBL in our highlander has anything like the specs that the one that comes as premium on the S and yet I find it more satisfying, at least compared to the demo S's. This week I get to take an extended test drive in a production car thanks to a very generous owner who has taken ownership recently, i'll report back on what I find in terms of differences if any.
I see that you are due to receive your Model S soon. Congratulations. I would be very interested in your professional evaluation of the Model S's sound system when you are in a position to spend some quality time with the system. I am not a professional, nor do I have a trained ear, but I am extremely pleased with the sound, with or without the Dolby on.
Your advice to start with quality components, etc., is hard to disagree with, but are you saying the only way to listen to music is with two-channel? Although I'm not an audiophile, I have a well treated home theater and I have always greatly enjoyed multichannel music. Discrete is of course preferred, but I have found matrix surround processing via Lexicon Logic7 and Dolby Pro Logic IIx to also be very satisfying. After starting with good components I have also found electronic room correction to be a valuable addition to further flatten the room response. It would seem to me that the cabin of a car with a lot of reflective surfaces, especially if you have a panoramic roof, would particularly lend itself to the application of a decent room correction system. The idea would not be to try to compensate for equipment of dubious quality, but rather to further flatten the room response of a very small acoustic space which are notorious for having problematic responses. I would like to emphasize I am not advocating the use of those rather artificial DSP modes that makes your room sound like a cathedral, but rather a decent room correction system used with mature, well designed surround processing.
Thanks.
Larry
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elreydetodo
Member
I think electronic room correction is either exactly what they need, or possible already being but badly. Cars are a very tricky environment because of all the reflective glass inside. I wouldn't be surprised if they had made some attempt at correcting for it that redsulted in that super-focues feeling I heard.
If I were to hold off on the premium sound, how well integrated do you think I could make an after-market system? Will the speaker positions be pre-wired just without speakers in them? Does anyone think Tesla may be willing to work with me on a custom sound system with a different/better amplefier?
I also happen to like the result of Logic 7 processing. It does some nice magic with spacial positioning, and I don't know how it seems to identify individual instruments so well. Like I said before, magic.
Does anyone know any of the technical details about the sound system? The speaker locations, the wire gaugue, the number of discrete channels connected the the amplifier, the location and frequency of any crossovers, the model and location of the amplifier, the type of output coming from.. wherever it's coming from? The number of raw channels it outputs?
If I were to hold off on the premium sound, how well integrated do you think I could make an after-market system? Will the speaker positions be pre-wired just without speakers in them? Does anyone think Tesla may be willing to work with me on a custom sound system with a different/better amplefier?
I also happen to like the result of Logic 7 processing. It does some nice magic with spacial positioning, and I don't know how it seems to identify individual instruments so well. Like I said before, magic.
Does anyone know any of the technical details about the sound system? The speaker locations, the wire gaugue, the number of discrete channels connected the the amplifier, the location and frequency of any crossovers, the model and location of the amplifier, the type of output coming from.. wherever it's coming from? The number of raw channels it outputs?
I can assure you that the system does not have room correction. For room correction you would need to have at least one microphone and a procedure to play test tones for each channel.
Larry
Pure speculation on my part:
1. You could make it as good as your budget wants. High quality after-market installers can work wonders.
2. Almost surely not. If you're serious about after-market, it may be cost-effective to get the Sound Studio anyway just so that the wiring and cutouts are in place. Even if you intend to replace the wires, having existing wires to use as pulls could be very valuable.
3. I seriously doubt that Tesla has the professional resources to work with after-market installers.
elreydetodo
Member
Who's to say they didn't do this at the factory once during development? The interior of the cars will all the the same, it's not like they would have to re-measure for each car constructed.
I assume you mean for each type of interior. A cabin with a panoramic roof acoustically is going to be a lot different than one with a standard roof. Regardless somehow I find the likelihood of Tesla using room correction and not including it in the description of the sound system to be a remote possibility. :wink:
Larry
It won't be long before a brave soul has his S gutted so that we can learn what the components are. I doubt Tesla designed their own amps/receivers/speakers. They must have had an OEM do it for them, and I believe we'll soon find out who that is. I think we'll learn a lot just knowing that.
ClearwaterBchSteve
P445 / VIN 1794
Since there have been audio system "updates" via new software builds, some portion of the system's control must be handled by the Model S's internal computer systems. This is a good thing since they can continue to improve the functionality with future versions. The volume increment granularity issue that was solved this fall is a perfect example. The big question is how much of the system's audio processing is in the software vs. external third-party hardware that is only "controlled" by the touch screen. The "Sound Studio" continues to be a mystery. All Tesla has really published is how many watts and # of speakers the system has. Based on observations and posts made here, the Dolby 7.1 Surround is all but useless for stereo sources. The only way we have figured out what audio formats the system can play is by owners experimenting. I'm looking forward to being one of those folks very soon :tongue:
Todd Burch
14-Year Member
http://www.teslamotors.com/models/specs
Tesla Model S Specs said:
That info's been online for a good long while!
ClearwaterBchSteve
P445 / VIN 1794
I'm with ya on that. I'm aware of those posted specs for the standard system. Some of us audio enthusiasts are also interested in more detailed specifications for the Sound Studio package. Things like max bit-rates, lossless formats, multi-channel discrete playback, EQ and soundfield processing, etc. There are some good posts here regarding what others have figured out.
One thing I find interesting is the fact that most car manufacturers brag about the component brands of their high-end audio systems (Bose, JBL, Mark Levinson, B & O, etc.). Tesla has been a bit quiet about this with Dolby Pro-Logic being the only brand mentioned. Are the speakers and amps Radio Shack? I certainly hope not :scared:
As an example, Model S also supports WMA (at least some flavors) as well, even though that's not published as officially supported.
Hi Todd,
The specifications listed are for the standard sound system. It is not clear whether the upgraded sound is supposed to play additional formats. For example, flac files are not listed on the specs, yet I have successfully played them on my Signature Model S that has the upgraded sound system. Does this mean all models will support flac and the spec need to be updated, or does this mean that this format is only available on the upgraded system?
Larry
P.S. A few hours ago I listened to a friend play WAV files on his General Production Model S with an upgraded sound system. That format is not listed in the specs.
Todd Burch
14-Year Member
Hi Larry,
Yes, they definitely need to update their specs.
A decent downloadable PDF brochure with detailed spec information is long overdue as well.
Yes, they definitely need to update their specs.
A decent downloadable PDF brochure with detailed spec information is long overdue as well.
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