Auto-Pilot Accident at 80mph - Totaled Car

[trm2]

Just from my limited experience driving my Tesla I feel like the autopilot features are most useful in the middle lane of a three lane freeway, so that's where I tend to drive. I also have actually slowed down and now drive at about 70 or 75 when using autopilot (rather than the 80 I used to drive) because I honestly just don't trust autopilot enough and feel like the extra reaction time necessary to correct an autopilot mistake warrants a slower driving speed.

I looked through the model S manual that I received when I got my car and there's no warning about driving next to a concrete median. You are all acting like this is a big no-no that all Tesla owners should know about, but it's not. Here's what I found in the manual that's relevant, and I bolded the portions I think are most appropriate for this accident:

Autosteer is intended for use only on highways and limited-access roads with a fully attentive driver. When using Autosteer, hold the steering wheel and be mindful of road conditions and surrounding traffic. Do not use Autosteer on city streets, in construction zones, or in areas where bicyclists or pedestrians may be present. Never depend on Autosteer to determine an appropriate driving path. Always be prepared to take immediate action. Failure to follow these instructions could cause damage, serious injury or death.

When Autosteer is able to detect lane markings, it also displays the driving lane in blue.

If Autosteer is unable to detect lane markings, the driving lane is determined based on the vehicle you are following. In most cases, Autosteer attempts to center Model S in the driving lane. However, if the sensors detect the presence of an obstacle (such as a vehicle or guard rail), Autosteer may steer Model S in a driving path that is offset from the center of the lane.

Warning: Autosteer is not designed to, and will not, steer Model S around objects partially or completely in the driving lane. Always watch the road in front of you and stay prepared to take appropriate action. It is the driver's responsibility to be in control of Model S at all times.
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A standard concrete median would not be what I would call "a construction zone" or guard rail acting as an obstacle. I don't think all this advice about avoiding using autosteer next to concrete medians is helpful. Nor do I agree with this 'counter torque' stuff, which could easily cause over-correction and lead to an accident.

I think the lesson here is to look at your dash for the blue lines. When you don't see them, be extra cautious and/or disengage autosteer.

The lack of blue lines is what could cause the car to veer off. If the car in front of it swerved or drifted onto the shoulder, and there weren't clear lane markings, the Tesla might swerve or drift too and perhaps rain or overreaction by driver did the rest. I'm curious to hear what Tesla discovers about the crash. Maybe it was something else entirely.

I think you missed a phrase in your bolding, so I did it for you.

 

[dark cloud]

The airbag would destroy that dog! There are way more safer places in the vehicle

I was thinking the same thing; I wonder how many people have had their pet squished to death on their chest....

 

[Vitold]

What software version was it?

 

[Eevee]

Pets easily become 'projectiles' in car accidents and can injure other people and animals too. It's best to secure them in the car with a special pet harness that attaches to a seatbelt or to put them inside a carrier. And there are ratings for the best carriers/harnesses.

SleepyPod and Gunner are currently the safest.
Sleepypod - Sleepypod® | The safest pet company and Man's Best Kennel® | Gunner Kennels

That said, I have 3 dogs and I know it's easier to travel with them when they're not in a crate or harness. One of my dogs is a Houdini and can escape any harness. (He also unbuckles seatbelts for himself and others as well as rolls down windows.) Another one whines and barks and chews at his harness or crate. He's a monster in the car and I try to never take him anywhere unless I absolutely have to. And the third is a good girl. So... I do share information but I try not to judge other people because I know we all have to make choices about pet safety.

 

[J1mbo]

@dkoi3d, glad you are OK ... any pics from the scene?

Just curious, as the damage to the car looks odd for the accident you describe. One thing's for sure, if this is how the car looks after hitting a solid post at 80mph then I'm seriously impressed...!

 

[dkoi3d]

@dkoi3d, glad you are OK ... any pics from the scene?

Just curious, as the damage to the car looks odd for the accident you describe. One thing's for sure, if this is how the car looks after hitting a solid post at 80mph then I'm seriously impressed...!

No pictures from the accident, I couldn't' find my phone in my car after. They were the 3ft concrete barries that just divide a highwawy not a post if that makes sense. This was on I 69 Indianapolis (google to see pictures around the 203 mile marker) The version was AP 1.0 updated to the latest FW. You are correct that it is odd, and im still confused to what happened. That there is no big scrapes on the left side or even the mirror, I assume my front left hit first then spun and hit the back tire? I honestly don't remember its pretty hazy.

 

[SMAlset]

@dkoi3d I thought maybe the car hit the front corner first and bounced off a bit and/or you likely instictively pull the steering wheel to the right to pull away from the impact, but the car got loose a bit and caused the back end to clip the wall as momentum carried it forward.

How are you feeling since? Did your face hit the steering wheel for your nose to have been broken or was it due to an airbag impact? Also curious about the arm burns, was it on both of them? Being Indianapolis and cold weather I would have assumed you had a coat on top of long sleeve clothing and that would have offered protection from any surface damage to your arms. I know that airbags explode outward with a lot of force but still find that interesting that your arms would have been affected.

 

[KArnold]

This was on I 69 Indianapolis (google to see pictures around the 203 mile marker)

Northbound? Found this pic near exit 203.

 

[Az_Rael]

Yeah, that yellow line looks pretty well marked, honestly. There are the barriers that jut out at the signs, but not as dramatic as the ones here in CA (which I don't use AP near). AP 1 sometimes has trouble with the black/white line markings, but I don't know why it would have gone over the solid yellow to hit the barrier. I would probably use AP in that lane, albeit not at 80, but only because I don't drive that fast.

 

[Eevee]

im still confused to what happened. That there is no big scrapes on the left side or even the mirror, I assume my front left hit first then spun and hit the back tire? I honestly don't remember its pretty hazy.

It's possible the witness described the accident incorrectly.

I'm sorry some people in this thread are assuming you were not paying attention at the time simply because your memory now is hazy. Have you been checked out for a concussion?

This thread definitely makes me want to install a dashcam asap.

 

[shred86]

Glad to hear you’re okay. Please let us know what Tesla finds in the logs, I’m curious to what the cause was.

Just recently picked up a Model S with AP1 so I’m still learning the ins and outs. Shouldn’t the vehicle have known there’s a concrete barrier to the left if you’re in the left lane? Not sure what the exact range is on the ultrasonic sensors but I’d imagine at least a few feet. Obviously it wouldn’t stop a hardware/part failure.

 

[ba2002]

I drive similarly to the people in the thread suggesting applying counter torque in the "safe" direction, but just pointing out the car can easily jerk suddenly in the "safe" direction and then you can end up compounding the error before reacting.

 

[Eevee]

Shouldn’t the vehicle have known there’s a concrete barrier to the left if you’re in the left lane? Not sure what the exact range is on the ultrasonic sensors but I’d imagine at least a few feet. Obviously it wouldn’t stop a hardware/part failure.

That's what I'm thinking may have happened - a mechanical issue. Or else someone swerved into his lane and the tesla avoided collision with the other car.

I drive similarly to the people in the thread suggesting applying counter torque in the "safe" direction, but just pointing out the car can easily jerk suddenly in the "safe" direction and then you can end up compounding the error before reacting.

Agree about 'compounding the error.' I believe it takes more time to react to an emergency driving situation when you're on autopilot than when you're in total control, regardless of how much attention you're paying and whether or not you're 'applying counter torque'.

There's often no "safe" direction, if you look at his pictures - which are similar to what many of us drive regularly. In the far left lane one direction goes into traffic and the other goes into the barrier. In the middle lane both directions go into traffic. In the far right lane one direction goes into traffic and the other goes off the shoulder either into a wall, over a small cliff, etc. You have a tiny bit of room in either far left or far right lanes by taking advantage of the shoulder but it also seems that autopilot works the least well in those lanes. And of course you'd have to be comfortable traveling the speeds in either of those lanes.

 

[GlmnAlyAirCar]

I drive similarly to the people in the thread suggesting applying counter torque in the "safe" direction, but just pointing out the car can easily jerk suddenly in the "safe" direction and then you can end up compounding the error before reacting.

It's a matter of time available to counteract undesired autosteer behavior. If in the center lane of a divided highway with wide shoulders and no traffic around, you may easily have a few seconds available to correct an anomaly. But next to a concrete barrier, you definitely don't want the car turning into the barrier, but may have some leeway in the other direction; that is my rationale for applying torque in the safe direction. If neither direction is safe (truck on the right, concrete barrier on the left), you better have a firm grip on the wheel preventing undesired turning in either direction.

This is really no different to how an autopilot in an aircraft is used. The main difference is that during most phases of flight, an autopilot malfunction which takes a few seconds to respond to will generally be a non-issue. In cruise flight, undesired roll or pitch for a second or two isn't going to take you into the path of another aircraft or result in an altitude bust.

However, during an instrument approach, a pilot is going to have one hand on the the yoke, and one on the throttles. There is very little time to react if the autopilot does something inconsistent with maintaining the desired profile. Unfortunately, with autosteer in a car, the car spends most of its time in these conditions. Traffic is nearby, the road curves, obstacles are off the side of the road.

The next level of pucker factor would be an actual autoland in instrument conditions. Besides the redundancy built into aircraft systems (which Tesla does not have in its autopilot), a pilot flying will be following every move the autopilot makes both visually (instrument scan) as well as tactility (hands on the controls). And the pilot not flying will be monitoring the instruments as well, calling out any deviations.

The takeaway here should be that whether you are piloting a car or an airplane, if there is very little time to correct for a failure of autonomy, the pilot must remain fully active and in the loop.

 

[GlmnAlyAirCar]

That's what I'm thinking may have happened - a mechanical issue.

If you are going to blame this on a mechanical issue you have way too much confidence in the autopilot software and too little understanding of its limitations.

 

[Eevee]

If you are going to blame this on a mechanical issue you have way too much confidence in the autopilot software and too little understanding of its limitations.

1st, I said MAY have happened. I did not assign a percentage of likelihood.
2nd, I read through this whole thread and looked at the pictures. He said he drove this stretch frequently without issue on AP so there's that. Then the damage to the rear wheel is really very bad and makes me wonder if something like this caused the problem: Rear lower control arms being cut through due to the chains!

 

[Electroman]

... going 80 .. In the far left lane next to the concrete median

Sorry I will be blunt here. Going 80 next to concrete median in AP? You had this coming.

Even driving manually, I would not go 80 next to concrete median. With AP, when driving at 80 the lines have to be perfect and from your pictures I see a lot of asphalt marks. You know there is a thing called common sense and defensive driving.

Another thing - for a crash at 80 on a concrete median your car looks surprisingly with not that much damage.

 

[GlmnAlyAirCar]

1st, I said MAY have happened. I did not assign a percentage of likelihood.
2nd, I read through this whole thread and looked at the pictures. He said he drove this stretch frequently without issue on AP so there's that. Then the damage to the rear wheel is really very bad and makes me wonder if something like this caused the problem: Rear lower control arms being cut through due to the chains!

Just because autopilot behaved acceptably in the past on a given stretch of road doesn't mean it will continue to do so. It is a very non-deterministic system. Initial conditions can change, lighting changes, etc. No two passes will ever be the same. He could have the same result 99 times then a swerve into the median on the 100th.

 

[Electroman]

Just because autopilot behaved acceptably in the past on a given stretch of road doesn't mean it will continue to do so. It is a very non-deterministic system. Initial conditions can change, lighting changes, etc. No two passes will ever be the same. He could have the same result 99 times then a swerve into the median on the 100th.

Exactly. It get less deterministic as the speed increases because the reaction time is much less and the car is getting less number of input points. Upto 5 miles above speed limit (on clearly marked highways) the predictability is very high and so is my confidence level which is inversely proportional to the attention needed and stress level

 

[NerdUno]

Lane Darts is the reason we sold our Tesla. Sure there are many ways to compensate for AutoPilot's quirks, but why should you have to?? We have Lane Keeping Assist (Mobileye) on 3 other cars (Nissan Rogue, Jag I-Pace, and Range Rover), and I've never seen the abrupt turning maneuvers that our Tesla demonstrated regularly. It's not a fluke, folks!