Auto-Pilot Accident at 80mph - Totaled Car

[Eevee]

No two passes will ever be the same. He could have the same result 99 times then a swerve into the median on the 100th.

OK Zeno, of course. But it's MORE likely that AP can handle a situation well if it has done so in the past numerous times. A normal person would be MORE cautious the first few times traveling that route/that style of driving than after they've done it over and over everyday for months or maybe even years.

I'm frustrated by this thread's pile on the driver. He may have made some poor choices by driving 80 on AP. But you know what? Tesla allows that. They stick a bunch of warnings in the manual but there's tons of evidence that suggest human behavior will ignore the warnings and do unsafe things anyway. If they really cared about driver safety AND that style of driving was very unsafe, then Tesla should not allow it. Humans doing stupid, unsafe things is MORE predictable than AP suddenly going haywire after successfully driving a stretch of freeway hundreds of times.

There's already a ton of evidence that humans tend to trust AP more than they should. It's like the cases of infant devices - things that are perfectly safe when used properly and following the manual/warnings but that in reality often get used improperly and result in baby deaths. The manufacturers should do more to prevent improper use because, well, humans are stupid.

 

[css28]

1st, I said MAY have happened. I did not assign a percentage of likelihood.
2nd, I read through this whole thread and looked at the pictures. He said he drove this stretch frequently without issue on AP so there's that. Then the damage to the rear wheel is really very bad and makes me wonder if something like this caused the problem: Rear lower control arms being cut through due to the chains!

Tire chains are really rarely used in this part of the country. Some other reason for control arm failure might be in play though.

 

[GlmnAlyAirCar]

OK Zeno, of course. But it's MORE likely that AP can handle a situation well if it has done so in the past numerous times. A normal person would be MORE cautious the first few times traveling that route/that style of driving than after they've done it over and over everyday for months or maybe even years.

I'm frustrated by this thread's pile on the driver. He may have made some poor choices by driving 80 on AP. But you know what? Tesla allows that. They stick a bunch of warnings in the manual but there's tons of evidence that suggest human behavior will ignore the warnings and do unsafe things anyway. If they really cared about driver safety AND that style of driving was very unsafe, then Tesla should not allow it. Humans doing stupid, unsafe things is MORE predictable than AP suddenly going haywire after successfully driving a stretch of freeway hundreds of times.

There's already a ton of evidence that humans tend to trust AP more than they should. It's like the cases of infant devices - things that are perfectly safe when used properly and following the manual/warnings but that in reality often get used improperly and result in baby deaths. The manufacturers should do more to prevent improper use because, well, humans are stupid.

I agree with most of what you say, except what you say contradicts your assertion about piling blame on the driver. This is entirely the drivers fault. He allowed AP to put him into a situation that he was not prepared to handle.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

Lane Darts is the reason we sold our Tesla. Sure there are many ways to compensate for AutoPilot's quirks, but why should you have to?? We have Lane Keeping Assist (Mobileye) on 3 other cars (Nissan Rogue, Jag I-Pace, and Range Rover), and I've never seen the abrupt turning maneuvers that our Tesla demonstrated regularly. It's not a fluke, folks!

Do you remember what version your car was on when you sold it? There have been some monumental upgrades to the Autopilot software this year. I can't remember the last time my car made an abrupt turn.

 

[acoste]

I agree with most of what you say, except what you say contradicts your assertion about piling blame on the driver. This is entirely the drivers fault. He allowed AP to put him into a situation that he was not prepared to handle.

There is a reason why other car makers call their systems driving assist instead of autopilot.

 

[Eevee]

I agree with most of what you say, except what you say contradicts your assertion about piling blame on the driver. This is entirely the drivers fault. He allowed AP to put him into a situation that he was not prepared to handle.

Again, we don't *know* that. He doesn't remember what happened and the witness could be wrong/lying/didn't see everything.

Also, I think we're just going to have a difference of opinion about fault. People see the world differently... If a parent leaves a loaded gun in the house and a child finds it and shoots himself in the foot, I'm going to blame the parents even if *technically* you could say it was the child's fault and they 'knew better than to play with guns.' Some people might say, well if it's a 4 year old then sure blame the parents but if it's a 15 year old, blame the kid. A lot of people want to treat criminal teens like adults - that's an opinion that if you hold then I think we will just have to disagree about. I will blame the parents every time no matter the kid's age or how often he's been told not to play with guns. I tend to lay the blame most squarely with whomever has more power (information, resources, etc) to prevent a foreseeable problem. And that's why I'd blame Tesla.

That said, it's possible the pros outweigh the cons. Even with human misuse of AP it's possible that overall it saves more lives? I don't know the answer to that. I do know that people invented devices to trick AP so they could avoid keeping their hands on the wheels. I do know there was a time period that Tesla only allowed AP to be used at the speed limit or 5 miles above the speed limit but a lot of people complained so they opened it up for use at high speeds. It's possible that for safety reasons they should set a hard limit at 70 mph or whatever speed gives the majority of people enough reaction time to handle most situations. I know other automakers are adding AP type functions in very different ways because of these issues. It's going to be a test for Tesla in the long run to see how things pan out. The human factor is a huge problem for autonomous driving so until they're all autonomous we're going to see a lot of these types of issues.

 

[NerdUno]

Do you remember what version your car was on when you sold it? There have been some monumental upgrades to the Autopilot software this year. I can't remember the last time my car made an abrupt turn.

Yeah. We lived through most of those. Our AP2 Model S P90D was current on updates as of the end of October, 2018.

 

[shred86]

Any updates on what Tesla was able to pull from the logs?

 

[bmah]

Moderator note: Moved four posts to Snippiness. Personal attacks on other members (including name-calling) and swearing are against TMC forum rules.

Bruce.

 

[cookie99]

any updates from tesla?

 

[Kenz]

Auto pilot speed should be restricted to either the posted speed limit or 5/10 over to account for passing and merging.
If someone wants to drive faster than the posted speed limit they should be fully in control of the vehicle and not relying on driver assist features.

 

[marcopone]

I do not understand which is the difference from a concrete barrier and a guard rail.
Let’s say that you should never use the AP when driving in the left lane.
But then it should not be possible to engage AP when in left lane.
And/or in left lane the maximal AP speed should be much reduced, but then you will not be in the left lane at low speed..

The truth is that AP is a dangerous device, at least 1.0 version.

Over a certain speed, let’s say 55, AP is not able to keep the car in the correct center position of a lane when the road is curved.
I trust everybody here is aware of this issue and take much care most of the time.
But then AP should disengae in motor roads with curves, and this is not happening.

The very point about AP is this :
it is implicit in the AP concept itself that the driver’s attention will be reduced and reaction time will be higher.
This is the only scope of AP : to let you drive more comfortably and relaxed and this mean lower attention.
and higher risk in case of unexpected behavior of your AP or other drivers or, may be, other cars near you using APs!

 

[Eevee]

Still interested in an update from the OP about what Tesla found when they looked at the logs