Autonomous Car Progress

[Daniel in SD]

The regulators may also fear a backlash or (political) liability if they allow money-making too soon as that might encourage the wrong kind of behavior.

Interesting to note the state-to-state difference on this one though since AZ does allow payments on Waymo One. Anyone know if California also has a system for paid autonomous services or if it is not possible yet at all?

I think the restriction only applies to Autonomous Test Vehicles.

Authorize Transport for Members of the Public in Test Vehicles.

California Code of Regulations, title 13, section 227.02(k) allows a passenger to summon a vehicle or input a destination. A member of the public may ride as a passenger in an autonomous test vehicle if there are no fees charged to the passenger or compensation received by the manufacturer. Similarly, California Code of Regulations, title 13,

section 227.26, subdivision (f) prohibits AV manufacturers from charging passengers a fee for riding in Test AVs, or to receive compensation for a test ride.

 

[cwerdna]

The restriction that Waymo cannot charge money for the rides seems a bit odd. After all, Waymo is a private company, their self-driving cars are quite good and the cars are required to have safety drivers. What would be the harm in charging money?

It's probably because regulators like the CPUC would need to get involved.

Passenger Carriers
Passenger Carriers FAQs

Q: Do I need to obtain a license from the PUC to transport passengers on a for-hire basis within California?
A: In most cases the transportation of passengers for compensation requires operating authority from the PUC. The law provides some exceptions, however. Two major ones are taxicab service, which is subject to local regulation by cities and counties, and medical transportation vehicles. All of the exceptions are set forth in Public Utilities Code Sections 226 and 5353.

I just stumbled across this: Autonomous Vehicle Carrier Pilot
"Under the AV Passenger Service pilot programs, monetary compensation may not be charged for any rides in test AVs."

Sorry. My knowledge of the CPUC is virtually nil. I just know I've seen TCP (number) sticker on limos and (IIRC) employee shuttles for various tech companies.

 

[Tam]

How will we know Tesla's Next Generation Automatic Emergency Braking System will be here?

I assume it's not an improvement on Radar / Cameras / Sonars but rather a software?

I guess it'll be active by the time other FSD features will be activated by the end of this year 2019?

Tesla on Twitter

 

[cwerdna]

I saw this in my FB feed today, but it's apparently old news from May 31, 2019.

Lyft has completed 55,000 self-driving rides in Las Vegas

I've definitely seen the vehicles the few times I've been in Vegas but unfortunately, never had the luck to be able to hail one. Also, I don't take such transportation much at all I'm in Vegas.

 

[Tam]

...Lyft...

If there are uncensored reports from Youtubers then we might be able to gauge its progress.

At least, it should have made videos showing that it's safe at 90MPH on the freeway and stopped effectively at an unexpected stationary obstacle.

 

[diplomat33]

Yandex/Hyundai introduce public L4/5 autonomous prototype that they plan to deploy in Moscow. The car is a retrofitted 2020 Hyundai Sonata.
https://electrek.co/2019/07/11/self-driving-sonata-hyundai-yandex/

 

[CarlK]

If there are uncensored reports from Youtubers then we might be able to gauge its progress.

At least, it should have made videos showing that it's safe at 90MPH on the freeway and stopped effectively at an unexpected stationary obstacle.

Not going to happen. I believe you need to sign an NDA to be permitted on the customer list. These are all still (crude) test cars or demos for any practical purposes.

 

[cwerdna]

Yandex/Hyundai introduce public L4/5 autonomous prototype that they plan to deploy in Moscow. The car is a retrofitted 2020 Hyundai Sonata.
Watch the new self-driving Sonata from Hyundai and Yandex, due to hit Moscow streets soon - Electrek

Russia's Yandex plans bold step for self-driving cars also mentions the planned safety driver removal.

Starting in August, the company intends to remove human safety drivers from five of its autonomous vehicles operating in the Russian city of Innopolis and conduct completely driverless commercial operations.
...
Currently, the company's safety drivers sit in the right seat during commercial operations in both Innopolis and Skolkovo, Russia. Between those two locations, Yandex has provided about 4,000 rides through its self-driving systems. There's not a specific date the safety drivers will exit vehicles in August. Teleoperation services will be enabled once drivers are removed.

Not going to happen. I believe you need to sign an NDA to be permitted on the customer list. These are all still (crude) test cars or demos for any practical purposes.

I'm not sure the bolded part is right. I did take some Lyfts in Vegas and IIRC, in the app, I was asked whether or not I'd be willing to be taken in self-driving/autonomous vehicle. I answered yes, but never did receive one.

It is possible an NDA is required upon acceptance or there's some requirement that no filming is allowed.

I did come across I took a gamble by riding in a self-driving Lyft in Las Vegas which is obviously isn't uncensored. I also stumbled across a video at Aptiv Spotted In Las Vegas and a ride at

from Jan 2019 that is not from the author of that web site. I've not watched much of it yet.

I also stumbled across this short video with only a bit of driving footage (from about 1:52 to the end) of a Yandex car self-driving in Vegas:

. It was definitely geo-fenced. There was no safety driver in the driver's seat, only a guy in the passenger street who could hit a kill switch.

 

[CarlK]

It is possible an NDA is required upon acceptance or there's some requirement that no filming is allowed.

You used to need to sign NDA to get on Waymo's early rider program. It sounds that you still need to sign an agreement but you're not restricted by an NDA for the Waymo One anymore. Taking video is probably still a no-no.

Here is some observations from actual riders. The service is OK, cars are nice but self driving it is not, even in a geofences area. The best they can say is disengagement is minimal.

Waymo One passengers reveal what it's really like to ride in Alphabet's self-driving taxis

Like everyone else's demo the Lidar + map approach can get you quickly to perhaps 99% or 99.9% but there is NO clear path to achieve the last few needed 9's without the deep learning ability. Those demo's could at best show they are getting 99.9% but totally irrelevant as far as full self driving goes (when there is no clear path to get there). Waymo and the rest do not want to say it but none of them has true self driving car in mind. No one can predict if Tesla will be successful or not but it's still the only company that has laid down the foundation toward that goal.

Here is another company that has just raised the white flag and says it is not even thinking full self driving cars at this moment. There are a lot of spins in there (like blaming regulation instead of their technology) but at least it says out loud what it can't do.
Intel self-driving venture will start with robotaxis, Mobileye’s Shashua says

 

[Cheburashka]

I saw this in my FB feed today, but it's apparently old news from May 31, 2019.

Lyft has completed 55,000 self-driving rides in Las Vegas

I've definitely seen the vehicles the few times I've been in Vegas but unfortunately, never had the luck to be able to hail one. Also, I don't take such transportation much at all I'm in Vegas.

I took the Lyft/Aptiv ride recently in Vegas on the strip and it was not good. Had two disengagements on a very brief ride.

 

[CarlK]

We can pretty much ignore all those robot taxi propogandas, err news, unless they will tell us if and when they can take those "safety engineers" off the car. No one is even mentioning that in their road maps. They can always hide behind "regulators" of course and continue to do those silly dog and pony shows forever.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Here is some observations from actual riders. The service is OK, cars are nice but self driving it is not, even in a geofences area. The best they can say is disengagement is minmal.

Their plan appears to be to get rid of the safety drivers and replace the with remote operators to get them out of trouble when they get stuck. It will certainly be interesting to see how well that works.

Like everyone else's demo the Lidar + map approach can get you quickly to perhaps 99% or 99.9% but there is NO clear path to achieve the last few needed 9's without the deep learning ability. Those demo's could at best show they are getting 99.9% but totally irrelevant as far as full self driving goes (when there is no clear path to get there). Waymo and the rest do not want to say it but none of them has true self driving car in mind. No one can predict if Tesla will be successful or not but it's still the only company that has laid down the foundation toward that goal.

They absolutely have full self driving cars in mind. It's not realistic to think that anyone can make a self driving car that will never require a human to take over occasionally in the near future.

Here is another company that has just raised the white flag and says it is not even thinking full self driving cars at this moment. There are a lot of spins in there (like blaming regulation instead of their technology) but at least it says out loud what it can't do.
Intel self-driving venture will start with robotaxis, Mobileye’s Shashua says

They're not giving up on self driving cars, they're just going to start by developing robotaxis first. Doing robotaxis first allows you to have much more expensive sensor suites and comply with testing regulations.

 

[Daniel in SD]

We can pretty much ignore all those robot taxi propogandas, err news, unless they will tell us if and when they can take those "safety engineers" off the car. No one is even mentioning that in their road maps. They can always hide behind "regulators" of course and continue to do those silly dog and pony shows forever.

Only companies that release unrealistic timelines should be taken seriously? How is Waymo hiding behind regulators? They have obtained permission for operation without safety drivers...
Tesla says they won't need safety engineers by the end of next year. If they miss that deadline should we no longer talk about them here?

 

[EVNow]

Here is another company that has just raised the white flag and says it is not even thinking full self driving cars at this moment. There are a lot of spins in there (like blaming regulation instead of their technology) but at least it says out loud what it can't do.
Intel self-driving venture will start with robotaxis, Mobileye’s Shashua says

That is not completely correct.

He says geofenced, Lidar based robotaxis are possible now. Once the price on sensors drop they can get to private FSD cars i.e. they have given up on getting to FSD purely though vision, but think they can get to geofenced robotaxis with Lidar a.k.a. the Waymo way.

 

[CarlK]

Only companies that release unrealistic timelines should be taken seriously? How is Waymo hiding behind regulators? They have obtained permission for operation without safety drivers...
Tesla says they won't need safety engineers by the end of next year. If they miss that deadline should we no longer talk about them here?

Are we talking the same thing about autonomous car without a "safety engineer"? Do you think it's odd everyone except Tesla is mum on that? Not even if or maybe but just avoid to touch that subject? Yes go ahead explain it away I'm waiting to see how good you can spin it for them.

That is not completely correct.

He says geofenced, Lidar based robotaxis are possible now. Once the price on sensors drop they can get to private FSD cars i.e. they have given up on getting to FSD purely though vision, but think they can get to geofenced robotaxis with Lidar a.k.a. the Waymo way.

He just did not want to say the real reason is the technology they don't know how to get. Unless you can show feasible technology you can never expect regulators to act. Cost is a non-issue if you know how to get it to work. Money will be pouring in even if Intel's backing is still not enough. The key is of course if you can get it to work.

He's playing the same game as others of robot taxi with safety engineer without saying if and when safety engineers could be take off the car. I'm sure we will not hear him talking about those power point he's been showing in the last year or two of road map to level 4 or 5 again for a while.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Are we talking the same thing about autonomous car without a "safety engineer"? Do you think it's odd everyone except Tesla is mum on that? Not even if or maybe but just avoid to touch that subject? Yes go ahead explain it away I'm waiting to see how good you can spin it for them.

Waymo announced November 7th 2017 that they were testing without a "safety engineer". Waymo’s fully self-driving vehicles are here - Waymo - Medium
Then I guess they decided it was too soon. Is that spin? I don't know, maybe. I guess it is if you think announcing stuff makes you a more a credible AV company.

 

[CarlK]

Waymo announced November 7th 2017 that they were testing without a "safety engineer". Waymo’s fully self-driving vehicles are here - Waymo - Medium
Then I guess they decided it was too soon. Is that spin? I don't know, maybe. I guess it is if you think announcing stuff makes you a more a credible AV company.

Here is just another example of Elon got harshly scrutinized but others could get away with anything they say. Do you think anyone here will let Elon off so easily if he did an about face in such a major magnitude like Waymo or Mobileye did?

Anyway the point is still none of those "robot taxi with safety engineers on board" companies has true autonomous car in mind. Let me know if you find anything that can contradict that statement.

 

[EVNow]

Anyway the point is still none of those "robot taxi with safety engineers on board" companies has true autonomous car in mind. Let me know if you find anything that can contradict that statement.

I read in one of waymo reviews that in self driving mode the safety driver is not allowed to operate. If he tries the car will go to the side and park.

Not sure whether they do this during regular taxi service.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Here is just another example of Elon got harshly scrutinized but others could get away with anything they say. Do you think anyone here will let Elon off so easily if he did an about face in such a major magnitude like Waymo or Mobileye did?

Anyway the point is still none of those "robot taxi with safety engineers on board" companies has true autonomous car in mind. Let me know if you find anything that can contradict that statement.

What the heck do you think all these autonomous vehicle companies are working on other than autonomous vehicles? "robot taxi with safety engineer on board" is a completely worthless product. I suppose if you think the investors, managers, and employees of all these companies are complete idiots that makes sense.
My only beef with what Tesla is doing is that they're selling a product that they have a very small chance of being able to deliver. There are plenty of articles about the failure of autonomous vehicle companies to deliver. I don't think Tesla would face any more criticism than anyone else if they were not selling a promise to deliver FSD to consumers.

 

[CarlK]

What the heck do you think all these autonomous vehicle companies are working on other than autonomous vehicles? "robot taxi with safety engineer on board" is a completely worthless product. I suppose if you think the investors, managers, and employees of all these companies are complete idiots that makes sense.

A lot of them are complete idiots (Intel was when it bought Mobileye for $15.3B). Others are pretty smart people but either not smart enough or could not see the bigger picture when immersed in what they are doing, or most likely both. Listen to that Levandowski interview he's one of those people and he readily admits that (only after he left the program).

My only beef with what Tesla is doing is that they're selling a product that they have a very small chance of being able to deliver. There are plenty of articles about the failure of autonomous vehicle companies to deliver. I don't think Tesla would face any more criticism than anyone else if they were not selling a promise to deliver FSD to consumer.

That's what you think but Elon truly believe he is going to get there. He is likely right but he's often misunderstood by people who just could not think at his level. Everything he did on this in the last many years (like starting the AI chip program in 2015 and put hardware in every car since 2014 all at tremendous costs for the small company) all makes sense now. Although people did not see that then and many still could not see it now.