Autonomous Car Progress

[AlanSubie4Life]

PB?

Peanut Butter; this is a sticky business.

Phantom Braking. It’s solved now by TeslaVision, so I know you probably rarely think about the acronym anymore.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Peanut Butter; this is a sticky business.

Phantom Braking. It’s solved now by TeslaVision, so I know you probably rarely think about the acronym anymore.

Ah, my position on phantom braking is that I'm against it but if I'm riding in a robotaxi I prefer it to the opposite failure mode.
If I ever end up behind a Waymo or Cruise vehicle I'll definitely keep my distance!

As you know I will never have TeslaVision with my obsolete hardware.

 

[Dewg]

Tesla is hitting curbs Iiterally because the cars can't even see them directly (it's just extrapolating like a human does). It doesn't even require advanced sensors, just something like the 360 parking cameras that have been out for ages to cover the blind areas in the front.

Aren't there ultrasonic sensors? When I get close to a curb my ultrasonic lines appear on the visualization, the closer the redder the line.

 

[drtimhill]

PB?

Phantom braking.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Phantom braking.

Autonomous Car Progress

PB? Peanut Butter; this is a sticky business. Phantom Braking. It’s solved now by TeslaVision, so I know you probably rarely think about the acronym anymore.

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Paid driverless rides for Cruise are now rolling out in SF:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1539997375661342721

How do I tip the computer?

 

[diplomat33]

How do I tip the computer?

HA HA. You don't. You just pay whatever the fare is on the app. Another advantage of driverless ride-hailing: you don't need to tip the driver.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Paid driverless rides for Cruise are now rolling out in SF:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1539997375661342721

So does Waymo not count because Arizona does not require government approval or because Chandler is not a major city?
76th most populous vs. 17th

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

So does Waymo not count because Arizona does not require government approval or because Chandler is not a major city?
76th most populous vs. 17th

Because no one really wants to go to Chandler?

Now in all seriousness I think it needs to be a top metro area like at least in the top 25.

 

[diplomat33]

So does Waymo not count because Arizona does not require government approval or because Chandler is not a major city?
76th most populous vs. 17th

I think Cruise is not counting Chandler as a major city in order to claim that they are the first paid driverless in a major US city. I think Phoenix is a major US city but I guess Chandler is a suburb so technically not the city of Phoenix proper. So that is how Cruise can spin it.

 

[diplomat33]

On CNBC, Kyle Vogt said that Cruise could expand paid driverless to all of SF with hundreds of robotaxis as soon as the end the year:

We started small in a limited area but very quickly you will see us expand where we are covering all of San Francisco, hundreds of vehicles out there, serving rides every night. I think that could happen as soon as the end of the year.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1539953575404736512

Now we all know about CEO's making FSD promises. LOL. But if Cruise is able to expand city wide with hundreds of driverless robotaxi by the end of this year, that would be quite an achievement IMO. I think it would show an ability to scale.

 

[stopcrazypp]

No, I'm assuming a known distortion camera. Outside of the camera light travels in a straight enough line.

The bollard is definitely visible to the center camera when the car hits it! The curb strikes I have seen have all been moderate speed right turns. Though many people claim it would hit them during higher speed left turns but no one seems to want to prove it.
View attachment 820087
View attachment 820088

That's not footage from the center camera, it's some other camera he added to the car that is much wider.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Aren't there ultrasonic sensors? When I get close to a curb my ultrasonic lines appear on the visualization, the closer the redder the line.

The ultrasonic sensors are blind to curbs or low barriers that are below about 8 inches:

The parking sensors may not function correctly in these situations:
...

• The object is located below approximately 8 inches (20 cm) (such as a curb or low barrier).

Model 3 Owner's Manual | Tesla

Plenty of people with curb rash or have scraped the underside of their front bumper on a concrete block to show for it, that the sensors did nothing to warn about.

 

[stopcrazypp]

On CNBC, Kyle Vogt said that Cruise could expand paid driverless to all of SF with hundreds of robotaxis as soon as the end the year:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1539953575404736512

Now we all know about CEO's making FSD promises. LOL. But if Cruise is able to expand city wide with hundreds of driverless robotaxi by the end of this year, that would be quite an achievement IMO. I think it would show an ability to scale.

Given how long Cruise has tested all over SF, I would be more surprised if they can't expand city wide. I don't think it really says anything about scaling until they test in a city they have never been in before at all and see how long it takes to get everything up and running smoothly.

 

[Dewg]

The ultrasonic sensors are blind to curbs or low barriers that are below about 8 inches:

Model 3 Owner's Manual | Tesla

Plenty of people with curb rash or have scraped the underside of their front bumper on a concrete block to show for it, that the sensors did nothing to warn about.

Bummer. I wonder what my sensors are seeing when I get close to curbs. Perhaps vegetation or something just above 8 inches.

 

[Daniel in SD]

That's not footage from the center camera, it's some other camera he added to the car that is much wider.

Obviously. There are multiple front cameras, one is 120 degree fisheye. I assume it can see pretty close to the front of the car...

Three cameras mounted behind the windshield provide broad visibility in front of the car, and focused, long-range detection of distant objects.

Wide
120 degree fisheye lens captures traffic lights, obstacles cutting into the path of travel and objects at close range. Particularly useful in urban, low speed maneuvering.

Main
Covers a broad spectrum of use cases.

Narrow
Provides a focused, long-range view of distant features. Useful in high-speed operation.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Obviously. There are multiple front cameras, one is 120 degree fisheye. I assume it can see pretty close to the front of the car...

But due to how high it is mounted and how the wide camera additionally has the entire lower part of the view blocked by the camera housing, it can't see the actual curb that is next to the car's front wheels in the actual moment (the rear facing cameras does catch the back however). It's simply not possible without a lower mounted camera. FSD just guesstimates the position of the curb relative to the car from previous frames when it is driving toward it (much like a human does), without directly seeing it in the given moment. This works ok when it is just traveling straight, but obviously has caused issues (curbing) when it makes a tighter turn.

See examples here:

Here's what Tesla's Autopilot 2.0 can see with its 8 cameras

With a 360 camera, you can directly see the entire curb clear as day at any given moment:

It is for this same reason why Tesla haven't been able to put out a 360 parking view, the car is just blind to the lower area in front of the car.

 

[Daniel in SD]

But due to how high it is mounted and how the wide camera additionally has the entire lower part of the view blocked by the camera housing, it can't see the actual curb that is next to the car's front wheels in the actual moment (the rear camera does catch the back however). It's simply not possible without a lower mounted camera. FSD just guesstimates the position of the curb relative to the car from previous frames when it is driving toward it (much like a human does), without directly seeing it in the given moment. This works ok when it is just traveling straight, but obviously has caused issues (curbing) when it makes a tighter turn.

All the curb strikes I've seen have been on the back wheel where the camera can see the curb. Not sure why it matters though, I don't see how more camera angles would help because by the time the curb is out of view it seems like it would require dramatic path corrections to avoid. This isn't a parking situation.
I've seen that it is masked by the housing but haven't seen exactly how close to the front of the car. It would make sense for it to be aligned with the hood though... I'm sure those bollards were in the field of view.
Looks like it can see very close to the front of the car. Much of the other car's hood is still in view at the moment of impact.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1431419241970950144

 

[stopcrazypp]

All the curb strikes I've seen have been on the back wheel where the camera can see the curb.

It's too late by the time the back camera sees the curb, it needs to see the curb as it is heading toward it. A lower camera in the front can do that.

Not sure why it matters though, I don't see how more camera angles would help because by the time the curb is out of view it seems like it would require dramatic path corrections to avoid. This isn't a parking situation.

Isn't the situations described of low speeds while making a turn (a bunch are at right turns in stop signs). I don't see how a low camera in front would NOT help. The car would be able to directly see where the curb is and thus avoid it. It does not need to rely on estimating it from previous frames while it is rotating the car (which is where it seems to gets things wrong).

I've seen that it is masked by the housing but haven't seen exactly how close to the front of the car. It would make sense for it to be aligned with the hood though... I'm sure those bollards were in the field of view.
Looks like it can see very close to the front of the car. Much of the other car's hood is still in view at the moment of impact.
View attachment 820286

https://twitter.com/x/status/1431419241970950144

I'm not sure how relevant that footage is to actual curbing. The screen shot you show have the left car further away from the car, plus the hood of a car is much higher than a curb. We have no footage from the cameras when the car is making a tight right turn. I'm pretty sure in that situation the curb is pretty much going to be invisible as it is making the turn.

Here's a screen shot of when the curb is just barely visible on the left, notice how far away the Camry is.

Here's the next frame when the curb disappears. Look how far away the Camry still is:

That makes me pretty confident the curb would be invisible if the car was making a turn.

 

[Daniel in SD]

I'm not sure how relevant that footage is to actual curbing. The screen shot you show have the left car further away from the car. We have no footage from the cameras when the car is making a tight right turn. I'm pretty sure in that situation the curb is pretty much going to be invisible as it is making the turn.

In the screenshot the front of the Tesla is in contact with the Camry. It would be interesting to know exactly what the blindspots of the car are though. I bet it's pretty close. I guess you could put your head on the ground and pretend to be a curb and look up at the camera and housing. haha.
It has a much better vantage point than the driver. If you can't detect the position of objects visible to the camera at that distance that's a problem you're going to have to solve no matter how many cameras you add unless you want a top speed of 10mph.