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I mean. I'm not.

And have corrected you on it with direct quotes from Tesla multiple times in the last few pages all confirming what I said.

fsdb is L2- always will be L2- and will never include the capabilities to be more. Per Tesla.

Which you've accused of lying about it I get- but then deny you accused of that-- only to do it again 5 posts later.

I'd strongly suggest you get your memory checked.

Your claim is that fsdb is and can only be City Streets.

I am claiming that the fsdb software can encompass many current and future features, including City Streets (and ASS and even a L3+ feature once they've validated the software and safety stats). After all, Tesla is only addressing the DMV about their made-up City Streets feature and public release.

Also, you're hopelessly dense to claim that I'm accusing Tesla of lying. I never said anything like that.
 
Your claim is that fsdb is and can only be City Streets.

Yes. Because that's literally true.

fsdb is what Tesla has been publically calling the software they internally call city streets. For several years now.

As documented in the actual code itself, and the CA DMV emails, and elsewhere.

I'm sorry you are this immune to documented facts.


I am claiming that the fsdb software can encompass many current and future features, including City Streets (and ASS and even a L3+ feature once they've validated the software and safety stats).

Then you continue to accuse Tesla of lying since I directly cite them saying you're wrong.


Also, you're hopelessly dense to claim that I'm accusing Tesla of lying. I never said anything like that.


You JUST said it in the paragraph above this one.

fsdb is city streets. They're the same thing. Read the CA DMV stuff. They're asking about fsdb which is city streets. BOTH terms are used for the SAME piece of software interchangeably because they are the same thing


And fsdb is L2, and is always intended to remain so.

But you insist it maybe be L3+.

Thus either Tesla is lying- or you continue to have no idea WTF you're talking about.

(Spoiler: it's that second one)
 
Yes. Because that's literally true.

fsdb is what Tesla has been publically calling the software they internally call city streets. For several years now.

As documented in the actual code itself, and the CA DMV emails, and elsewhere.

I'm sorry you are this immune to documented facts.




Then you continue to accuse Tesla of lying since I directly cite them saying you're wrong.





You JUST said it in the paragraph above this one.

fsdb is city streets. They're the same thing. Read the CA DMV stuff. They're asking about fsdb which is city streets. BOTH terms are used for the SAME piece of software interchangeably because they are the same thing


And fsdb is L2, and is always intended to remain so.

But you insist it maybe be L3+.

Thus either Tesla is lying- or you continue to have no idea WTF you're talking about.

(Spoiler: it's that second one)

Geez with your level 5 logic, 2019 fsd description logic, and now this City Streets logic, it's difficult to get anywhere with you on this.

City Streets is a made up name. Tesla can define it however they want. It's the same as ASS or Smart Summon. They have no real absolute meaning. You, on the other hand, apply absolutes to something that is made up.

There's no helping this anymore.
 
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fsdb is city streets. They're the same thing. Read the CA DMV stuff. They're asking about fsdb which is city streets. BOTH terms are used for the SAME piece of software interchangeably because they are the same thing

Your logic: a house INCLUDES a door, therefore the door IS the house! They are the same thing

YOU read the DMV stuff, lol:

The FSD Capability feature suite, which includes City Streets, is explained on our website at Autopilot and Full Self-Driving Capability | Tesla Support. Among other information, our website explains that FSD Capability features are intended for use only with a fully attentive driver who has his or her hands on the wheel and is prepared to take over at any moment. It further explains that FSD Capability features do not make the vehicle autonomous.

...

Please note that Tesla’s development of true autonomous features (SAE Levels 3+) will follow our iterative process(development, validation, early release, etc.) and any such features will not be released to the general public until we have fully validated them and received any required regulatory permits or approvals.
 
Your logic: a house INCLUDES a door, therefore the door IS the house! They are the same thing

No, my logic is when a builder refers to a house they just constructed, and elsewhere in THE SAME DOCUMENT refers to that same thing as the building, they're discussing the same item.

fsdb does not "contain city streets and a bunch of other stuff"

fsdb IS city streets.


YOU read the DMV stuff, lol:

I did. It keeps proving you wrong.

Hence why you apparently refuse to read it.



Geez with your level 5 logic, 2019 fsd description logic, and now this City Streets logic, it's difficult to get anywhere with you on this.

I'm sorry my posts are requiring you to understand facts and documents and logic and you're having such a hard time getting anywhere with those.

My bad.


City Streets is a made up name. Tesla can define it however they want.

And they defined it as fsd beta.

Again in the CA DMV docs they refer to the release dates, and updates, to it that all correspond exactly with the dates those things happened regarding fsdb.

The beta was called city streets internally-- and fsd beta externally. They are literally the same thing.





The FSD Capability feature suite, which includes City Streets, is explained on our website at Autopilot and Full Self-Driving Capability | Tesla Support. Among other information, our website explains that FSD Capability features are intended for use only with a fully attentive driver who has his or her hands on the wheel and is prepared to take over at any moment. It further explains that FSD Capability features do not make the vehicle autonomous.

CORRECT.

For some weird reason though you keep mixing up "FSD capability" which is the ENTIRE suite of all features present and future.... with fsdb.

fsdb is just the public name for city streets.

An L2 feature that Tesla intends to remain L2 in its final release.

As quoted to you directly from Tesla repeatedly.
 
fsdb is just the public name for city streets.

No, fsdb is made up.

City Streets is made up.

ASS is made up.

Reverse Summon is made up.

Feature Complete is made up.

It's whatever Tesla wants to define them, and they can change any definition or software feature at any time.

Historically, fsdb is the entire software suite that Tesla is developing that is aspirationally L3+. This includes driving on City Streets, reverse summon, ASS, LA to NY, robotaxi, feature complete, etc. whatever.

FSDb can be defined as Full Self Driving Capability Suite - BETA
 
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No, fsdb is made up.

City Streets is made up.

ASS is made up.

Reverse Summon is made up.

Feature Complete is made up.

It's whatever Tesla wants to define them, and they can change any definition or software feature at any time.

Once they define a thing- especially to a government agency- they can not just "change any definition or software feature at any time"

So again you continue to be fundamentally, factually, wrong, in all your writing here.


Historically, fsdb is the entire software suite that Tesla is developing that is aspirationally L3+.

This is outright false. Again. As directly provide by direct quotes from Tesla themselves.

So is Tesla lying, or are you?


This includes driving on City Streets, reverse summon, ASS, LA to NY, feature complete, etc. whatever.

Literally NONE of those things, other than city streets, are part of FSDb.

City streets is, of course, since City streets is what fsdb is called internally by Tesla



FSDb can be defined as Full Self Driving Capability Suite - BETA


I mean- it can if you want to make up your OWN definitions directly contradicted by those of Tesla.

Which you seem to very strongly wish to do.



These last many pages have been super interesting.

If Tesla delivers something that qualifies as "Level or Category 5 - Full Driving Automation," what will they call it?

We already know what they'll call it.

FSD.

It's what was promised to buyers of FSD prior to ~March 2019. (But NOT to buyers after that date- that's when they changed the sales page to not promise anything more than L2, with city streets being the only feature not delivered to everyone on the list)


(You could make some decent arguments they only promised L4 for the pre 3/19 buyers- but that's a whole other debate).


FSDb on the other hand, internally named city streets by Tesla, is an L2 driver aid and intended to remain exactly that. Wide release to every FSD buyer will complete the list of promised features for post 3/19 buyers of FSD....hence why Tesla is recognizing revenue on that basis as they had to defer that revenue until they delivered promised features.
 
FSDb on the other hand, internally named city streets by Tesla, is an L2 driver aid and intended to remain exactly that. Wide release to every FSD buyer will complete the list of promised features for post 3/19 buyers of FSD....hence why Tesla is recognizing revenue on that basis as they had to defer that revenue until they delivered promised features.

You keep saying this, but where in the DMV correspondence does Tesla say fsdb is and only is City Streets? So now fsdb will never include ASS? That's news to me.

Seems like you're making this stuff up.

Once they define a thing- especially to a government agency- they can not just "change any definition or software feature at any time"

So again you continue to be fundamentally, factually, wrong, in all your writing here.

They can change it since it's a made-up marketing term. They just need to email the DMV again to inform them of the changes.

What Tesla can't change is the definition of the levels.
 
You keep saying this

Yes, because it's factual.

, but where in the DMV correspondence does Tesla say fsdb is and only is City Streets?

The document repeatedly makes it clear that fsdb IS city streets. It's two names for the same thing.

Pretty much throughout the correspondence where DMV asks for a demo of "the FSD beta release", Tesla provides one- and Tesla lists specific deployment dates, specific documentation provided to testers (internal and then external), etc.... through the entire thing all the things the public saw released as fsdb exactly match what Tesla ALSO refers to repeatedly as BOTH city streets internally and the fsd beta externally.

Because they are 2 names for the same thing.

Tesla doesn't say "We will demo the city streets part of fsdb"

They say city streets IS the beta. That's the thing. And it's all level 2, and intended to STAY level 2.

The OEDR is incapable of >L2 and we have no plans to add that.

We plan to produce some FUTURE software that will be >L2. This is not it.

Like you've been told roughly 9738 times now.



So now fsdb will never include ASS? That's news to me.

....what?

I said fsdb was level 2 and would always remain so. Because that's what Tesla said.

I said fsdb would not have any GREATER than L2 features added to it in the final version. Because that's what Tesla said.

Neither of Tesla in the emails, nor I at all, have said anything about ASS.

Moreover NOTHING in fsdb has changed how any variant of summon works at all. Because summon isn't part of fsdb.

It's entirely possible Tesla plans to leverage some of the same things fsdb DOES contain to improve summon.

But we've also not seen anything from Tesla saying that would be capable of >L2 EITHER so I'm unclear why you even mention it...unless you have some source that states conclusively the next update to summon will magically be >L2?

Do you?



Seems like you're making this stuff up.

I mean, I keep directly citing Teslas own words proving you wrong.

And even your own words where you keep contradicting yourself over and over-- or your own words where you tell us Tesla is lying, then deny you said it and ask for proof--- which I provide, and you then deny yet again.


Whereas your own entire argument seems to be based on what you "feel" "could" happen even in direct contradiction of what Tesla themselves says. And your feeling is based on.....literally nothing you have shared with us.


So my side:

Here's Teslas actual words saying everything you are posting is wrong.


Here's your side:

Tesla can just totally do the opposite of everything they said because.... REASONS!


'Which one of those seems made up?
(spoiler: it's yours)




They can change it since it's a made-up marketing term. They just need to email the DMV again to inform them of the changes.

I mean, again, if your argument is Tesla repeatedly lied to the DMV, then sure, they can just tell the DMV they were lying every time they directly replied to a DMV question about current and future expected capabilities of a specific piece of software.


It's an incredibly dumb thing for you to suggest they would do of course.

And makes no actual sense.

But it COULD be done.

Tesla could also send employees to start robbing banks too. That's a thing they COULD do.

They won't do that any more than they'll tell the DMV none of their previous certifications about the software known as both fsdb and city streets wasn't true though.
 
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The document repeatedly makes it clear that fsdb IS city streets. It's two names for the same thing.

Pretty much throughout the correspondence where DMV asks for a demo of "the FSD beta release", Tesla provides one- and Tesla lists specific deployment dates, specific documentation provided to testers (internal and then external), etc.... through the entire thing all the things the public saw released as fsdb exactly match what Tesla ALSO refers to repeatedly as BOTH city streets internally and the fsd beta externally.

Once again, quote the lines you think are saying that fsdb is and will only ever be City Streets.
 
That's great. Quote them for me and us.

I did. Repeatedly. Including in the last few pages.

Is your back button broken or something?

Or are you still unable to grasp that Tesla refers to the same thing as both fsdb and city streets? That they are a single thing with both an internal and an external name (BOTH of which get used in the CA DMV emails you refuse to read even WHEN they're quoted), and they have repeatedly, clearly, said that single thing with 2 names is L2, by design, and will remain so in its final version?

And in case you're still unclear-- it's not just Tesla and the CA DMV who know for a fact they're the same thing by 2 names.

Here's the NHTSA from the recent recall investigation of it

NHTSA said:
Analysis and testing performed as part of NHTSA’s Engineering Analysis (EA22-002) revealed that in certain situations, Tesla’s Autosteer on City Streets (Full Self Driving (FSD) Beta), led to an unreasonable risk to motor vehicle safety based on insufficient adherence to traffic safety laws,

Same software- two different names.

L2. And always intended to remain that way.
 
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Not in that route. Not without disengagements, interventions etc.

Infact overall crowdsourced disengagement rate is 1 in 10 miles. Human accident rate is 1 in 10,000 miles. Lets chat again when the disengagement rate is in thousands of miles per disengagement, instead of single/double digits.
Come on, if you are going to throw out some facts, give a little more details. How many are participating in your crowdsourced statistics? Are these user reported or automated?

It wouldn't happen to be the 300 person project would it?