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Surveillance cam shows the Cruise collision with the red light runner.


IMO, the car that ran the red light is to blame for the accident. It violated traffic rules by running a red light. But I think the Cruise AV prediction stack should have determined the car was going too fast and not moved into the path. I think human drivers would have seen that moving into the path of the other car would cause a collision. The other car was too close and not slowing down. So I do think the Cruise should have avoided the collision. There was a failure of behavior prediction of Cruise.
 
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Surveillance cam shows the Cruise collision with the red light runner.


IMO, the car that ran the red light is to blame for the accident. It violated traffic rules by running a red light. But I think the Cruise AV prediction stack should have determined the car was going too fast and not moved into the path. I think human drivers would have seen that moving into the path of the other car would cause a collision. The other car was too close and not slowing down. So I do think the Cruise should have avoided the collision. There was a failure of behavior prediction of Cruise.
Are we sure the Cruise had a green light?

I know they've said they did, but witness said the grey car had the green light, and in that video we can see another car go through cross-wise to the cruise right before the cruise just rolls into the intersection, but I can't reliably make out any lights/hue shifts around to indicate the light status either way.

IMO they need to tone down their blaming of other parties in some cases (such as the fire truck) as it's making me less trustful of their statements overall.
 
Are we sure the Cruise had a green light?

I know they've said they did, but witness said the grey car had the green light, and in that video we can see another car go through cross-wise to the cruise right before the cruise just rolls into the intersection, but I can't reliably make out any lights/hue shifts around to indicate the light status either way.

IMO they need to tone down their blaming of other parties in some cases (such as the fire truck) as it's making me less trustful of their statements overall.
Yeah, I'm not sure also. Looks like my suspicions were dead on:
Could also be a stale green (on either side).
As you pointed out, the car in blue crossed over immediately before the Cruise entered the intersection, so what I said about stale green definitely can apply. I should remind to others from other states (just as it affected previous analysis), that in California, as long as you entered the intersection before the light turned red, you are legally in the intersection and thus have the right of way even though the light may also have turned green for cross traffic.
Also, this is unrelated to legal blame, but it's also possible the Cruise could have avoided it if it didn't stop.
The video makes it seem like if the Cruise didn't stop, it likely would not have been hit. It chose to stop right in the lanes that the coming car would have a hard time avoiding.

The way it pulled out also it seems like the gray car should have been in the view of the sensors clearly not slowing down and the car still surged forward before slamming on the brakes. Is there perhaps a huge delay between when the Cruise vehicle gets sensor data and processes to apply actions?
 
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What was complicated about the fire truck being in the oncoming lane? For me it implies that the Cruise prediction stack assumes a certain direction of travel based on lane occupancy and therefore assumed the fire truck was going the opposite direction since it was in the oncoming lane. As a result, the Cruise prediction stack did not correctly predict the collision. If true, then it would show a weakness in the Cruise prediction stack.
Yes - Cruise is not taking into account the fact that an emergency vehicle can be using the wrong lane ... (or for that matter even other vehicles in construction area).
 
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Are we sure the Cruise had a green light?
I know they've said they did, but witness said the grey car had the green light,
I haven't seen any Cruise statement on this crash. "Eleni" first said grey car had green, now says Cruise had green.
I'm >99% sure Cruise had green. It's waiting at the light at 0:00 -- you can see headlights shining on the pavement -- then starts rolling a couple seconds later. Cruise has successfully waited for millions of red lights to turn green, I strongly doubt this was the first exception.

IMO they need to tone down their blaming of other parties in some cases (such as the fire truck) as it's making me less trustful of their statements overall.
Yeah, I always parse their wording carefully, but I didn't read their statement as blaming the fire truck. i think they're just hoping readers will say "yeah, a fire truck going the wrong direction could be tough for s/w to handle" instead of thinking about it a minute and saying "wait, fire trucks do that all the time, how can their s/w not handle it?"

CPUC is the one that issues the AV operational permits however, and they can revoke, limit, or outright refuse to approve them based on potential safety issues. They recently chose to approve them with no limits.
Autonomous Vehicle Program Permits Issued
Both have many limits. They're only approved in San Francisco (plus tiny slices of San Mateo county for Waymo) and they're prohibited from certain roads and weather conditions. Also Cruise is limited to 35 mph. And, CPUC specifically said a couple times in the hearing that safety matters were for DMV to decide. Which they've apparently now done, btw, demanding Cruise cut their driverless fleet by 50%.

The video makes it seem like if the Cruise didn't stop, it likely would not have been hit. It chose to stop right in the lanes that the coming car would have a hard time avoiding.
Cruise stopped in the bus lane on Mission, before it reach the grey car's lane. There was no way to know the grey car would swerve right, like a heat seeking missile, and ram the stopped Cruise. Had the grey car simply gone straight it probably would have missed the Cruise completely, or perhaps barely clipped the front bumper.

The way it pulled out also it seems like the gray car should have been in the view of the sensors clearly not slowing down and the car still surged forward before slamming on the brakes. Is there perhaps a huge delay between when the Cruise vehicle gets sensor data and processes to apply actions?
It does seem Cruise could have stopped a fraction sooner. At 0:04 Cruise was rolling into the bus lane and the grey car still had plenty of time to stop. By 0:05 it was "hey, is that guy going to stop or not?" Cruise didn't hit the brakes until 0:06.
 
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Yep, we've already been talking about it. I think it is the right move to cut their fleet by 50%. There have been too many incidents to ignore. IMO, Cruise is not ready to scale yet. They need to cut back temporarily while they improve their autonomous driving and make it more reliable.
 
I haven't seen any Cruise statement on this crash. "Eleni" first said grey car had green, now says Cruise had green.
I'm >99% sure Cruise had green. It's waiting at the light at 0:00 -- you can see headlights shining on the pavement -- then starts rolling a couple seconds later. Cruise has successfully waited for millions of red lights to turn green, I strongly doubt this was the first exception.
I can't tell with the headlights whether or not they are the headlights from the cruise on the ground or the headlights from the gray car reflecting off the pavement at the camera.

My biggest question is if it's clear the other party is at fault and they ran a red, why not simply post the video recording that no doubt exists of this from the car, unless it makes them look bad.
Yeah, I always parse their wording carefully, but I didn't read their statement as blaming the fire truck. i think they're just hoping readers will say "yeah, a fire truck going the wrong direction could be tough for s/w to handle" instead of thinking about it a minute and saying "wait, fire trucks do that all the time, how can their s/w not handle it?"
The wording that makes me think they want to publicly imply the fire truck is to blame is "entered the intersection on a green light and was struck by".


It twists the image to one of the car following the rules and the emergency vehicle being the aggressor by being "struck by" it. You could do the exact opposite by saying "the crash was caused because the car failed to yield to an emergency vehicle responding to a fire and stopped directly in its path."
 
Both have many limits. They're only approved in San Francisco (plus tiny slices of San Mateo county for Waymo) and they're prohibited from certain roads and weather conditions. Also Cruise is limited to 35 mph. And, CPUC specifically said a couple times in the hearing that safety matters were for DMV to decide. Which they've apparently now done, btw, demanding Cruise cut their driverless fleet by 50%.
You deleted the rest of my comment where I mentioned the context, but my point was about the previous limitations on operational hours and fared service. Point is CPUC could have chosen to deny their request for expansion earlier in the month or could choose to revoke it right now, and the current accidents do not change the logic to do so.
Cruise stopped in the bus lane on Mission, before it reach the grey car's lane. There was no way to know the grey car would swerve right, like a heat seeking missile, and ram the stopped Cruise. Had the grey car simply gone straight it probably would have missed the Cruise completely, or perhaps barely clipped the front bumper.
From the video, it looks to me like the Cruise was already past the bus lane. The gray would have to swerve left to avoid the Cruise. Looks like there was a bit of brake dive and the gray car turned right, perhaps because it didn't expect the Cruise to come to a complete stop.
It does seem Cruise could have stopped a fraction sooner. At 0:04 Cruise was rolling into the bus lane and the grey car still had plenty of time to stop. By 0:05 it was "hey, is that guy going to stop or not?" Cruise didn't hit the brakes until 0:06.
But from the video, there is no indication of the gray car slowing at all approaching the intersection. I'm pretty sure the Cruise would have seen the car approaching well before crossing into any lanes. The gray car was in frame already 3 seconds in and in that 3-4 second mark the Cruise car would have had full visibility as the car was approaching with no indication of slowing down.
 
There was no way to know the grey car would swerve right, like a heat seeking missile, and ram the stopped Cruise. Had the grey car simply gone straight it probably would have missed the Cruise completely, or perhaps barely clipped the front bumper.
Grey car probably assumed Cruise would continue to go forward... and tried to go behind Cruise by swerving right.
 
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Unfortunately, we don't see what happened before to give us context of what caused the stall. I wish Cruise would tell us what happened here because it does not seem like a complicated scenario. I am guessing the road closure confused the first Cruise which tried to turn left from in the middle of the intersection. The other 2 Cruise AVs have to wait for the first Cruise to clear the intersection. But these stalls make AVs look bad because it looks like AVs can't handle simple road closures.
 
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SF reporter tries both Cruise and Waymo. Cruise ride took about 25 minutes and cost $13.81. Waymo ride took 20 minutes total and cost $16.27.

Here is TL;DR conclusion:

Overall, other than the Cruise approaching the biking family so closely, the two driverless rides felt safer than some rideshares I’ve taken. Both stayed below the speed limit and made complete stops at all stop signs and traffic lights, though Waymo seemed to drive a bit more smoothly than the Cruise, which made harsher stops and jerkier turns.

Still, I can’t say I’m eager to get in a driverless car again any time soon. The experience was a bit embarrassing, with passersby turning their heads and watching, taking videos and pictures and, in some cases, shaking their heads or rolling their eyes. If I were really in a time crunch, I’d still choose a human-driven rideshare, which usually have shorter waits and take more direct routes. Otherwise, I’d probably opt for the Muni over a robotaxi, which usually takes longer but is much cheaper, at $2.50 a ride.

 
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Unfortunately, we don't see what happened before to give us context of what caused the stall. I wish Cruise would tell us what happened here because it does not seem like a complicated scenario. I am guessing the road closure confused the first Cruise which tried to turn left from in the middle of the intersection. The other 2 Cruise AVs have to wait for the first Cruise to clear the intersection. But these stalls make AVs look bad because it looks like AVs can't handle simple road closures.
I'm inclined to believe two things when I see a lot of these stalled cruise videos.

1. People crowding around the AV makes the stall take longer to resolve as the vehicle won't move with someone standing close to it.

2. Cruise is not ready to scale as fast as they are attempting to scale. Waymo even 4 years ago was not having as much issues as cruise are currently.
 
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Unfortunately, we don't see what happened before to give us context of what caused the stall. I wish Cruise would tell us what happened here because it does not seem like a complicated scenario. I am guessing the road closure confused the first Cruise which tried to turn left from in the middle of the intersection. The other 2 Cruise AVs have to wait for the first Cruise to clear the intersection. But these stalls make AVs look bad because it looks like AVs can't handle simple road closures.
I've been saying this now for a while. Cruise license needs to be suspended until they can get their error rates down to human levels. We never, ever see so many human drivers stuck at intersections (or for that matter drive on wet concrete).

Its clear that Cruise just stops when its in doubt because that doesn't count as an accident.
 
Grey car probably assumed Cruise would continue to go forward... and tried to go behind Cruise by swerving right.
I agree. Grey driver suddenly noticed Cruise moving into his path and instinctively jerked the wheel toward the space it would soon vacate. But Cruise hit the brakes at the same instant, and stayed in that space.
From the video, it looks to me like the Cruise was already past the bus lane.
Maybe the tip of the bumper was past the bus lane. If you freeze it the instant before impact (0:07), the Cruise was fully stopped with the front bumper hidden behind that green/grey post. Extend the bus lane line and it hits that same spot. At 0:01 the passenger side of the blue car passes that same spot. So it's pretty close. Had the grey car gone straight it might have missed the Cruise or might have barely clipped the front bumper. A slight twitch to the left by grey driver would have definitely missed the Cruise.
But from the video, there is no indication of the gray car slowing at all approaching the intersection.
Many people drive like my sister - they stay on the gas until they reach the intersection, then use full brakes. Drives me nuts. If you wait every time one of these drivers is 100 yards away and not yet slowing you'll spend way too much of your life sitting at green lights with people behind you honking irately. That's no way to live.

When a car is that far away you have to trust the lights and say "there's a 99.999% chance that car will stop". A little later it's 99.9%, then 99%, etc. At some point the chance of stopping reaches 0%. You can't wait for 0% to take evasive action, but you can't do it at 99.999%, either.

I do agree Cruise could have stopped a fraction of a second earlier. But saying it should have just sat at the light and waited is like saying "those people shouldn't have got on that plane that crashed".
 
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1. People crowding around the AV makes the stall take longer to resolve as the vehicle won't move with someone standing close to it.

Yes, people crowding around the AV definitely makes the stall worse because AVs are programmed not to move when there are pedestrians so close to it or even touching it. I think many don't know this about AVs because they don't know how AVs work. But I believe some people also do it on purpose because they want to make the stalls look worse in order to push an anti-AV agenda.

2. Cruise is not ready to scale as fast as they are attempting to scale. Waymo even 4 years ago was not having as much issues as cruise are currently.

I think it is very clear now that Cruise is not ready to scale as fast as they wanted to. I cringed when I heard Vogt talk about doubling driverless miles every month or scaling to like 7-8 cities in a year. That seemed way too fast for a company that is having so many issues.

I wonder if Cruise was lulled into a false sense of over-confidence because of their high disengagement rate. Last year, they reported a disengagement rate to the CA DMV of almost 1 disengagement per 100,000 miles. That might have made them think they were ready to scale. And they assumed that that they could start with driverless at night with less traffic, and risk would be low, so it would be ok. But as we see, as they scaled, they started encountering a lot of situations that caused problems. It is a cautionary tale that just because your disengagement rate looks good, does not necessarily mean you are ready to scale everywhere. I would also note that I think they only did like 800,000 miles so it was a relatively small sample. So I think that might have made their high disengagement rate not a statistically accurate representation of their true capability.

Its clear that Cruise just stops when its in doubt because that doesn't count as an accident.

Yes, that is Cruise's programming, just stop when confidence is "too low". I think the idea is that stopping is generally less risky because you can't hit anything when you are stopped. If the AV lacks confidence but it acts on it anyway, it could do something really unsafe and hit something, but if it just stops, it might block traffic and cause some annoyance but it won't hit anything. So stopping is the less risky choice. And of course, if the AV is stopped and another vehicle hits it, then technically Cruise can claim they were not at-fault. So while stopping might not actually be safe, it might protect you from liability.

This strategy might be ok if they were rare. I don't expect AVs to always handle everything perfectly. Heck, even humans can sometimes encounter a situation we are not 100% sure what to do. It's happened to me. The problem with Cruise is that they are happening too often and in unsafe situations like in the middle of intersections. Either Cruise software is really bad because it is unsure a lot or Cruise turned up the threshold too high so the car will stop at even the slightest drop in confidence. I wonder if Cruise is using it a crutch, figuring they can go driverless and just have the car stop when it is not sure because like you said, it won't count as an accident.

IMO, there are two instances where an AV should never stop in the middle of the road because of lack of confidence, unless it is for a safety critical reason. One is highways and two is intersections, especially big busy ones. On other roads, if the AV wants to pull over when it is not sure, that's fine, but it should not just stop in the middle of an intersection just because it is not sure what do. And we've seen with Cruise that apparently most road closures will cause the car to just stop and freeze. That's not good. So yeah, I think Cruise needs to put the safety driver back in and make their system much more reliable and more robust before they remove the safety driver. But I am sure GM won't like that. IMO, the AV has to reliably handle intersections and road closures before it can go driverless. There are many other things it needs to do reliably as well, but those are two big ones.
 
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LA Times article on why robotaxis need to be regulated by cities.

Here is the conclusion:

California should not blithely turn over public streets to private companies to develop their products. It’s not anti-innovation to expect that autonomous vehicles demonstrate they can follow the rules of the road before giving them free rein. Nor is it heavy-handed to allow cities to regulate self-driving taxis operating on local streets. The CPUC or state lawmakers should require that robotaxi companies share data and coordinate their operations with cities.

There’s an assumption that autonomous vehicles will ultimately be such a significant improvement over human-driven cars — providing safer, cheaper, more efficient transportation that can replace car ownership — that we should give companies leeway to experiment and we should tolerate a period of disruption. Perhaps. The technology does hold great potential for safer driving without human error.

But there’s no guarantee that autonomous vehicles are a panacea for all transportation problems. It’s quite possible robotaxis could end up worsening traffic congestion, with driverless vehicles endlessly circling blocks between passengers. The AV companies need to serve their bottom line. It will take regulation and government oversight to ensure the autonomous vehicle revolution really does improve life in cities.


I can't say I disagree. I don't believe any product, let alone a safety critical product like an autonomous vehicle, should be deployed with no oversight or regulation. I am generally in favor of government regulation as long as it is sensible and not overly punitive. I guess the counter argument would be that AVs are already regulated since companies in CA need to apply for all kinds of permits to test and then deploy AVs. But I think the point is that regulating testing is not enough, cities should be able to regulate the actual commercial deployment. SF is becoming the perfect example for this as we see what is happening when a company that did a lot of testing, is allowed to deploy hundreds of driverless cars, without the city being able to regulate that deployment.
 
Yes, people crowding around the AV definitely makes the stall worse because AVs are programmed not to move when there are pedestrians so close to it or even touching it. I think many don't know this about AVs because they don't know how AVs work. But I believe some people also do it on purpose because they want to make the stalls look worse in order to push an anti-AV agenda.



I think it is very clear now that Cruise is not ready to scale as fast as they wanted to. I cringed when I heard Vogt talk about doubling driverless miles every month or scaling to like 7-8 cities in a year. That seemed way too fast for a company that is having so many issues.

I wonder if Cruise was lulled into a false sense of over-confidence because of their high disengagement rate. Last year, they reported a disengagement rate to the CA DMV of almost 1 disengagement per 100,000 miles. That might have made them think they were ready to scale. And they assumed that that they could start with driverless at night with less traffic, and risk would be low, so it would be ok. But as we see, as they scaled, they started encountering a lot of situations that caused problems. It is a cautionary tale that just because your disengagement rate looks good, does not necessarily mean you are ready to scale everywhere. I would also note that I think they only did like 800,000 miles so it was a relatively small sample. So I think that might have made their high disengagement rate not a statistically accurate representation of their true capability.



Yes, that is Cruise's programming, just stop when confidence is "too low". I think the idea is that stopping is generally less risky because you can't hit anything when you are stopped. If the AV lacks confidence but it acts on it anyway, it could do something really unsafe and hit something, but if it just stops, it might block traffic and cause some annoyance but it won't hit anything. So stopping is the less risky choice. And of course, if the AV is stopped and another vehicle hits it, then technically Cruise can claim they were not at-fault. So while stopping might not actually be safe, it might protect you from liability.

This strategy might be ok if they were rare. I don't expect AVs to always handle everything perfectly. Heck, even humans can sometimes encounter a situation we are not 100% sure what to do. It's happened to me. The problem with Cruise is that they are happening too often and in unsafe situations like in the middle of intersections. Either Cruise software is really bad because it is unsure a lot or Cruise turned up the threshold too high so the car will stop at even the slightest drop in confidence. I wonder if Cruise is using it a crutch, figuring they can go driverless and just have the car stop when it is not sure because like you said, it won't count as an accident.

IMO, there are two instances where an AV should never stop in the middle of the road because of lack of confidence, unless it is for a safety critical reason. One is highways and two is intersections, especially big busy ones. On other roads, if the AV wants to pull over when it is not sure, that's fine, but it should not just stop in the middle of an intersection just because it is not sure what do. And we've seen with Cruise that apparently most road closures will cause the car to just stop and freeze. That's not good. So yeah, I think Cruise needs to put the safety driver back in and make their system much more reliable and more robust before they remove the safety driver. But I am sure GM won't like that. IMO, the AV has to reliably handle intersections and road closures before it can go driverless. There are many other things it needs to do reliably as well, but those are two big ones.
Agreed. In SF, I would fold in adequate response to emergency vehicles — just stopping when one is heard won’t work because there’d be no traffic with sirens going off all the time. With sufficient localization (do Teslas even possess a stereo microphone pair?), the planner must develop “an out” like fast pullover into a driveway. Going in reverse is even useful in these parts when a fire engine turns that corner into a narrow street.

Here’s an academic paper about aural response to emergency vehicles; I hope Tesla is learning from the pioneers here: [2109.14797] Emergency Vehicles Audio Detection and Localization in Autonomous Driving