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Autopilot and the meaning of the word 'never'

dsm363

Roadster + Sig Model S
May 17, 2009
18,278
151
Nevada
Perhaps, but that's counter to jeffro01's suggestion (or perhaps just my interpretation of his statement) that the feature should just immediately disable as driving on such roads with autosteer at all is a terrible idea.

Can you quote where he said it should automatically and instantly disable? He said using it on a two lane road is the place you should never use AP.
 

brianman

Burrito Founder
Nov 10, 2011
17,521
2,989
Can you quote where he said it should automatically and instantly disable? He said using it on a two lane road is the place you should never use AP.
Perhaps we use the word "never" differently. Unless I'm misunderstanding the underlined, it implies that the moment the vehicle enters a two-lane road (including due to necking from a four-lane) the feature should automatically and instantly deactivate (if previously active) and become disabled until this "hostile to autopilot" environmental condition subsides.

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The suspension level brewhaha happened before I bought my car and right after I joined TMC, so I know about it, but not from an owner/firmware perspective.

But IIRC, Tesla was also quick to push out a fix for that based on owner feedback.
Heh, no. Not only did they not "bring it back" quickly, but there has been extensive discussion about the difference between "Low" height before and after the suspension firmware changes.

I remember multiple (at least 5) occasions where many of us were mulling over "do I take the fix for X / addition of Y, knowing that I lose Z" at multiple firmware update intervals. In fact I remember a month or so where every firmware offered had at least one "gotcha" that made it undesirable to me.
 

dsm363

Roadster + Sig Model S
May 17, 2009
18,278
151
Nevada
Perhaps we use the word "never" differently. Unless I'm misunderstanding the underlined, it implies that the moment the vehicle enters a two-lane road (including due to necking from a four-lane) the feature should automatically and instantly deactivate (if previously active) and become disabled until this "hostile to autopilot" environmental condition subsides.

I understand the use of the word. Again where did he say it instantly disables putting the life of the driver at risk if he isn't paying attention. He said you should never use it on two lane roads not that Tesla should disable it instantly. Of course Tesla would disable it in a responsible manner getting you to take over. I get you like to parse words but what he said was pretty clear.
 

brianman

Burrito Founder
Nov 10, 2011
17,521
2,989
Yes, I want better navigation, but honestly I don't care about the nav nearly as much as autopilot. I generally know where I'm going without it.
@dirkhh
I agree with wk here. One of the fundamental reasons why I agree is because of the way I prioritize features.

Simply put: features that can be addressed by my mobile phone are less important than features that can't.

(A)
My mobile phone can't allow me to accelerate quicker, drive faster, drive farther, nor bring features like CC, parking sensors, TACC, auto-brights, auto-steer, and parallel park.
(B)
My mobile phone can provide me a hotspot, a web browser, navigation, music, traffic info, etc.

When Tesla falls short on providing a feature in category (B), or delivers it poorly, I definitely give them feedback but it's not a primary concern.
When Tesla falls short on providing a feature in category (A), or delivers it poorly, it's a big deal to me.

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I understand the use of the word. Again where did he say it instantly disables putting the life of the driver at risk if he isn't paying attention. He said you should never use it on two lane roads not that Tesla should disable it instantly. Of course Tesla would disable it in a responsible manner getting you to take over. I get you like to parse words but what he said was pretty clear.
The context of the discussion was Tesla "nanny" behavior making sure we, as users, behave as they, as product providers, want us to.

As such, if we should "never" use a feature on two-lane roads a "nanny" firmware update might/should ensure that "never" is reality. Doing so means instant disabling.

I'm not parsing words, I'm merely following through the thought process to its natural conclusion within the confines of the "nanny" discussion.
 

dsm363

Roadster + Sig Model S
May 17, 2009
18,278
151
Nevada
Firmware 7.0

@dirkhh
I agree with wk here. One of the fundamental reasons why I agree is because of the way I prioritize features.

Simply put: features that can be addressed by my mobile phone are less important than features that can't.

(A)
My mobile phone can't allow me to accelerate quicker, drive faster, drive farther, nor bring features like CC, parking sensors, TACC, auto-brights, auto-steer, and parallel park.
(B)
My mobile phone can provide me a hotspot, a web browser, navigation, music, traffic info, etc.

When Tesla falls short on providing a feature in category (B), or delivers it poorly, I definitely give them feedback but it's not a primary concern.
When Tesla falls short on providing a feature in category (A), or delivers it poorly, it's a big deal to me.

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The context of the discussion was Tesla "nanny" behavior making sure we, as users, behave as they, as product providers, want us to.

As such, if we should "never" use a feature on two-lane roads a "nanny" firmware update might/should ensure that "never" is reality. Doing so means instant disabling.

Um no. Not really. If that were the case Tesla would require hands on the wheel by checking every 5 seconds and alerting you if they are not there. It may mean that to you but that doesn't make it accurate or real. If the car didn't think you were in imminent danger there is no reason why it wouldn't just start chiming and then either force you to take over or pull over and slow down if you weren't paying attention.

Instant to me means right away without warning. You really think Tesla would just disable autosteer in a non emergency setting without giving the driver at least a few seconds warning? Ok.
 
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brianman

Burrito Founder
Nov 10, 2011
17,521
2,989
Instant to me means right away without warning. You really think Tesla would just disable autosteer in a non emergency setting without giving the driver at least a few seconds warning? Ok.
To me "warning" has nothing to do with it. And, no, I don't think that -- which is why I raised the concern. What I'm saying is that when you use words like "never" that is what the firmware would be required to do if it followed the stated expectation of behavior.
 

dsm363

Roadster + Sig Model S
May 17, 2009
18,278
151
Nevada
To me "warning" has nothing to do with it. And, no, I don't think that -- which is why I raised the concern. What I'm saying is that when you use words like "never" that is what the firmware would be required to do if it followed the stated expectation of behavior.

Tesla would likely not allow you to start autosteering on these roads but wouldn't instantly disable it. Having a warning does matter. You made it sound like they would instantly disable it. 'Never' was his word. Not something that is law that requires Tesla to instantly disable the feature the second you cross into a two lane road. I know you are upset with Tesla these days but let's be reasonable.
 

brianman

Burrito Founder
Nov 10, 2011
17,521
2,989
(1) Tesla would likely not allow you to start autosteering on these roads but wouldn't instantly disable it. (2) Having a warning does matter. (3) You made it sound like they would instantly disable it. 'Never' was his word. (4) Not something that is law that requires Tesla to instantly disable the feature the second you cross into a two lane road. I know you are upset with Tesla these days but let's be reasonable.
1. Correct.
2. I meant having a warning or not having a warning has no relevance w/r/t the definition of instant. If there's a warning, then a pause, then the car reacts -- then it's not instant. If there's a car reaction at the same time as a warning, then the "instantness" of the reaction is unrelated to the warning's presence.
3. No, I'm saying if you use the word "never" to describe an environmental condition that "should disable" a feature then staying true to "never" implies you have to react instantly to do so. If the car can "see" / "predict with confidence" that it will have to disable "in 300 feet" rather than "oh crap it switch just now and I didn't 'see' it coming" then "instant" reaction would be required.
4. Tangent, and unsupported by what was said here.
 

dsm363

Roadster + Sig Model S
May 17, 2009
18,278
151
Nevada
Firmware 7.0

1. Correct.
2. I meant having a warning or not having a warning has no relevance w/r/t the definition of instant. If there's a warning, then a pause, then the car reacts -- then it's not instant. If there's a car reaction at the same time as a warning, then the "instantness" of the reaction is unrelated to the warning's presence.
3. No, I'm saying if you use the word "never" to describe an environmental condition that "should disable" a feature then staying true to "never" implies you have to react instantly to do so. If the car can "see" / "predict with confidence" that it will have to disable "in 300 feet" rather than "oh crap it switch just now and I didn't 'see' it coming" then "instant" reaction would be required.
4. Tangent, and unsupported by what was said here.

1) This really isn't that complicated.
2) see #1
3) Tesla doesn't currently simply disable autosteer in normal conditions instantly with or without wanting unless it loses all confidence on what it is doing. Why the word 'instant' is debatable is beyond me. Why would Tesla start now and create an uncontrolled situation when not necessary? It's very relevant.
 
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wk057

Senior Tinkerer
Feb 23, 2014
5,656
11,388
Hickory, NC, USA
While autosteer doesn't generally "instantly" disable, I have in fact have it instantly disable with no warning in a repeatable scenario. Granted, it's outside of the intended use cases, but it's repeatable and the first time it happened I was caught a bit off guard. Still reacted fast, but was completely unexpected.

The scenario is when you're following a vehicle that comes to a stop in front. The vehicle turns blue to show the car is now relying on tracking that vehicle for steering data. If that vehicle accelerates away faster than autopilot would, or otherwise gets out of autopilot's view by accelerating quickly then jumping to a turn lane or something, and autopilot can't get a fix on the lanes due to either going too slowly (<18 MPH) or poor or no lane markings ahead (like if you were the second car stopped at an intersection) then the car will move reasonably quick, then just give up with the "Take over immediately" warning.

When the "Take over immediately" warning comes up, the car has in fact given up control of steering. If your hands aren't there, the car is just going to follow the curvature of the road or whatever other forces would guide it at that point with no steering input. Definitely wouldn't have been my first choice, as an autopilot developer, but I guess there isn't much of an alternative when the car just doesn't know what to do.
 

dsm363

Roadster + Sig Model S
May 17, 2009
18,278
151
Nevada
While autosteer doesn't generally "instantly" disable, I have in fact have it instantly disable with no warning in a repeatable scenario. Granted, it's outside of the intended use cases, but it's repeatable and the first time it happened I was caught a bit off guard. Still reacted fast, but was completely unexpected.

The scenario is when you're following a vehicle that comes to a stop in front. The vehicle turns blue to show the car is now relying on tracking that vehicle for steering data. If that vehicle accelerates away faster than autopilot would, or otherwise gets out of autopilot's view by accelerating quickly then jumping to a turn lane or something, and autopilot can't get a fix on the lanes due to either going too slowly (<18 MPH) or poor or no lane markings ahead (like if you were the second car stopped at an intersection) then the car will move reasonably quick, then just give up with the "Take over immediately" warning.

When the "Take over immediately" warning comes up, the car has in fact given up control of steering. If your hands aren't there, the car is just going to follow the curvature of the road or whatever other forces would guide it at that point with no steering input. Definitely wouldn't have been my first choice, as an autopilot developer, but I guess there isn't much of an alternative when the car just doesn't know what to do.

Agree. Brianman is saying since Tesla will never allow auto steering on two lane roads they must instantly disable auto steering with or without a warning. With clear lane markings Tesla would have no reason to do this. They might not want you to but there would be plenty of time for them to say 'you have one minute until autopilot disengages. This is not a recommended road for its use' or something like that.
 
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brianman

Burrito Founder
Nov 10, 2011
17,521
2,989
Brianman is saying since Telsa will never allow auto steering on two lane roads they must instantly disable auto steering with or without a warning.
That's not what I said. And it's "Tesla". ;)

What I was saying is that if Tesla decided to "never" allow autosteering on two lane roads that would necessitate in some cases instantly disable auto steering. A implies B, in a logic fashion. Nothing to do with policy or algorithm decisions.

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There is a nice quiet job in software development?
Hehe.

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They've gone to Google.
They've gone to Apple
They've gone to that the new Tesla competitor (faraday motors or something like that).
They've gone to Uber.

What's really frustrating is they've gone to places that don't have a shipping product, and won't have a shipping product for quite some time.

I think we're going to need a college dedicated to churning out Automotive software developers.

Right now it seems like Tesla is suffering from their own success. Kinda like a football team (*cough* Seahawks *cough*) after the Superbowl.
Or... they (Tesla) need to analyze and address what's making developers leave. Work environment, incentives, career path, etc.
 

dsm363

Roadster + Sig Model S
May 17, 2009
18,278
151
Nevada
That's not what I said. And it's "Tesla". ;)

What I was saying is that if Tesla decided to "never" allow autosteering on two lane roads that would necessitate in some cases instantly disable auto steering. A implies B, in a logic fashion. Nothing to do with policy or algorithm decisions.

And why would it necessitate they 'instantly' do this? I seriously don't get your fixation on why they would have to force themselves to instantly disable the system and potentially impact safety for no good reason. That makes no sense and isn't logical. Tesla can say they don't want auto steer on two lane roads for potential safety reasons but that doesn't mean they have to drop the hammer and turn it off instantly. They could easily give you plenty of warning. It's not like the system has lost track of where the road is and forces you to take over. I'm not seeing how that's so logical. So what would those cases be where the system needs to instantly shut off when it is still in control?
 

brianman

Burrito Founder
Nov 10, 2011
17,521
2,989
And why would it necessitate they 'instantly' do this? That makes no sense and isn't logical. Tesla can say they don't want auto steer on two lane roads for potential safety reasons but that doesn't mean they have to drop the hammer and turn it off instantly. They could easily give you plenty of warning. It's not like the system has lost track of where the road is and forces you to take over. I'm not seeing how that's so logical. So what would those cases be where the system needs to instantly shut off when it is still in control?
Sorry, I can't explain it any better. I've tried like 4 times. Perhaps someone else can translate for me. FlasherZ seems pretty good the last few days at such things.
 

dsm363

Roadster + Sig Model S
May 17, 2009
18,278
151
Nevada
Sorry, I can't explain it any better. I've tried like 4 times. Perhaps someone else can translate for me.

Actually you haven't explained it 4 times. You've just said it's logical that they must instantly disable it.

Here is one of the attempts.
The context of the discussion was Tesla "nanny" behavior making sure we, as users, behave as they, as product providers, want us to.

As such, if we should "never" use a feature on two-lane roads a "nanny" firmware update might/should ensure that "never" is reality. Doing so means instant disabling.

I'm not parsing words, I'm merely following through the thought process to its natural conclusion within the confines of the "nanny" discussion.

Doesn't explain why instantly disabling it is so paramount. 5 seconds of warning would be too much?
 

brianman

Burrito Founder
Nov 10, 2011
17,521
2,989
Doesn't explain why instantly disabling it is so paramount. 5 seconds of warning would be too much?
I think you're saying:
1. Autosteer engaged.
2. Two lane road predicted.
3. Autosteer warning.
4. Two lane road encountered.
5. Autosteer disengaged.

Imagine 2 is not possible, which makes 3 not possible. That leaves us with 1, 4, 5 which implies instant disabling.

"But wait, can't you do...
1. Autosteer engaged.
4. Two lane road encountered.
4.1 Warn
4.2 Wait 5 seconds
5. Autosteer disengaged."

The existence of 4.2 implies "never autosteer on 2 lane road" is violated.
 

Andyw2100

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2014
6,542
2,393
Ithaca, NY
Sorry, I can't explain it any better. I've tried like 4 times. Perhaps someone else can translate for me. FlasherZ seems pretty good the last few days at such things.

Actually you haven't explained it 4 times. You've just said it's logical that they must instantly disable it.

For a minute there I forgot what thread I was in, and thought I was reading one of the HP threads! :)
 

dsm363

Roadster + Sig Model S
May 17, 2009
18,278
151
Nevada
I think you're saying:
1. Autosteer engaged.
2. Two lane road predicted.
3. Autosteer warning.
4. Two lane road encountered.
5. Autosteer disengaged.

Imagine 2 is not possible, which makes 3 not possible. That leaves us with 1, 4, 5 which implies instant disabling.

"But wait, can't you do...
1. Autosteer engaged.
4. Two lane road encountered.
4.1 Warn
4.2 Wait 5 seconds
5. Autosteer disengaged."

The existence of 4.2 implies "never autosteer on 2 lane road" is violated.

This 'no autosteer on two lane roads' rule is a Tesla self imposed rule, not a law from up on high. I'd imagine they could give you 5 seconds of unanticipated two lane roads to take over considering they released the software allowing it to work anywhere at any speed. Should me the law that says 'Autosteer disengaged' must happen the millisecond the system realizes it is on a two lane road potentially putting the driver's safety at risk. I expect it in a 1) 2) 3) format.
 

brianman

Burrito Founder
Nov 10, 2011
17,521
2,989
Like I said, apparently we use the word "never" differently. Also you seem to be misunderstanding the premise that started this whole discussion. It was about a theoretical "never" not something coming from Tesla.
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
9,936
4,851
The existence of 4.2 implies "never autosteer on 2 lane road" is violated.
I think his point is that this premise is false in the first place. If you go back to the "nanny" modes of other cars, they also use a timer. They don't cut you off immediately for having your hands off.
 
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