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Autopilot and the meaning of the word 'never'

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by dsm363, Dec 8, 2015.

  1. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    Can you quote where he said it should automatically and instantly disable? He said using it on a two lane road is the place you should never use AP.
     
  2. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    Perhaps we use the word "never" differently. Unless I'm misunderstanding the underlined, it implies that the moment the vehicle enters a two-lane road (including due to necking from a four-lane) the feature should automatically and instantly deactivate (if previously active) and become disabled until this "hostile to autopilot" environmental condition subsides.

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    Heh, no. Not only did they not "bring it back" quickly, but there has been extensive discussion about the difference between "Low" height before and after the suspension firmware changes.

    I remember multiple (at least 5) occasions where many of us were mulling over "do I take the fix for X / addition of Y, knowing that I lose Z" at multiple firmware update intervals. In fact I remember a month or so where every firmware offered had at least one "gotcha" that made it undesirable to me.
     
  3. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    I understand the use of the word. Again where did he say it instantly disables putting the life of the driver at risk if he isn't paying attention. He said you should never use it on two lane roads not that Tesla should disable it instantly. Of course Tesla would disable it in a responsible manner getting you to take over. I get you like to parse words but what he said was pretty clear.
     
  4. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    @dirkhh
    I agree with wk here. One of the fundamental reasons why I agree is because of the way I prioritize features.

    Simply put: features that can be addressed by my mobile phone are less important than features that can't.

    (A)
    My mobile phone can't allow me to accelerate quicker, drive faster, drive farther, nor bring features like CC, parking sensors, TACC, auto-brights, auto-steer, and parallel park.
    (B)
    My mobile phone can provide me a hotspot, a web browser, navigation, music, traffic info, etc.

    When Tesla falls short on providing a feature in category (B), or delivers it poorly, I definitely give them feedback but it's not a primary concern.
    When Tesla falls short on providing a feature in category (A), or delivers it poorly, it's a big deal to me.

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    The context of the discussion was Tesla "nanny" behavior making sure we, as users, behave as they, as product providers, want us to.

    As such, if we should "never" use a feature on two-lane roads a "nanny" firmware update might/should ensure that "never" is reality. Doing so means instant disabling.

    I'm not parsing words, I'm merely following through the thought process to its natural conclusion within the confines of the "nanny" discussion.
     
  5. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    #5 dsm363, Dec 8, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2015
    Firmware 7.0

    Um no. Not really. If that were the case Tesla would require hands on the wheel by checking every 5 seconds and alerting you if they are not there. It may mean that to you but that doesn't make it accurate or real. If the car didn't think you were in imminent danger there is no reason why it wouldn't just start chiming and then either force you to take over or pull over and slow down if you weren't paying attention.

    Instant to me means right away without warning. You really think Tesla would just disable autosteer in a non emergency setting without giving the driver at least a few seconds warning? Ok.
     
  6. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    To me "warning" has nothing to do with it. And, no, I don't think that -- which is why I raised the concern. What I'm saying is that when you use words like "never" that is what the firmware would be required to do if it followed the stated expectation of behavior.
     
  7. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    Tesla would likely not allow you to start autosteering on these roads but wouldn't instantly disable it. Having a warning does matter. You made it sound like they would instantly disable it. 'Never' was his word. Not something that is law that requires Tesla to instantly disable the feature the second you cross into a two lane road. I know you are upset with Tesla these days but let's be reasonable.
     
  8. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    1. Correct.
    2. I meant having a warning or not having a warning has no relevance w/r/t the definition of instant. If there's a warning, then a pause, then the car reacts -- then it's not instant. If there's a car reaction at the same time as a warning, then the "instantness" of the reaction is unrelated to the warning's presence.
    3. No, I'm saying if you use the word "never" to describe an environmental condition that "should disable" a feature then staying true to "never" implies you have to react instantly to do so. If the car can "see" / "predict with confidence" that it will have to disable "in 300 feet" rather than "oh crap it switch just now and I didn't 'see' it coming" then "instant" reaction would be required.
    4. Tangent, and unsupported by what was said here.
     
  9. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    #9 dsm363, Dec 8, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2015
    Firmware 7.0

    1) This really isn't that complicated.
    2) see #1
    3) Tesla doesn't currently simply disable autosteer in normal conditions instantly with or without wanting unless it loses all confidence on what it is doing. Why the word 'instant' is debatable is beyond me. Why would Tesla start now and create an uncontrolled situation when not necessary? It's very relevant.
     
  10. wk057

    wk057 Senior Tinkerer

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    While autosteer doesn't generally "instantly" disable, I have in fact have it instantly disable with no warning in a repeatable scenario. Granted, it's outside of the intended use cases, but it's repeatable and the first time it happened I was caught a bit off guard. Still reacted fast, but was completely unexpected.

    The scenario is when you're following a vehicle that comes to a stop in front. The vehicle turns blue to show the car is now relying on tracking that vehicle for steering data. If that vehicle accelerates away faster than autopilot would, or otherwise gets out of autopilot's view by accelerating quickly then jumping to a turn lane or something, and autopilot can't get a fix on the lanes due to either going too slowly (<18 MPH) or poor or no lane markings ahead (like if you were the second car stopped at an intersection) then the car will move reasonably quick, then just give up with the "Take over immediately" warning.

    When the "Take over immediately" warning comes up, the car has in fact given up control of steering. If your hands aren't there, the car is just going to follow the curvature of the road or whatever other forces would guide it at that point with no steering input. Definitely wouldn't have been my first choice, as an autopilot developer, but I guess there isn't much of an alternative when the car just doesn't know what to do.
     
  11. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    #11 dsm363, Dec 8, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2015
    Agree. Brianman is saying since Tesla will never allow auto steering on two lane roads they must instantly disable auto steering with or without a warning. With clear lane markings Tesla would have no reason to do this. They might not want you to but there would be plenty of time for them to say 'you have one minute until autopilot disengages. This is not a recommended road for its use' or something like that.
     
  12. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    That's not what I said. And it's "Tesla". ;)

    What I was saying is that if Tesla decided to "never" allow autosteering on two lane roads that would necessitate in some cases instantly disable auto steering. A implies B, in a logic fashion. Nothing to do with policy or algorithm decisions.

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    Hehe.

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    Or... they (Tesla) need to analyze and address what's making developers leave. Work environment, incentives, career path, etc.
     
  13. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    And why would it necessitate they 'instantly' do this? I seriously don't get your fixation on why they would have to force themselves to instantly disable the system and potentially impact safety for no good reason. That makes no sense and isn't logical. Tesla can say they don't want auto steer on two lane roads for potential safety reasons but that doesn't mean they have to drop the hammer and turn it off instantly. They could easily give you plenty of warning. It's not like the system has lost track of where the road is and forces you to take over. I'm not seeing how that's so logical. So what would those cases be where the system needs to instantly shut off when it is still in control?
     
  14. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    Sorry, I can't explain it any better. I've tried like 4 times. Perhaps someone else can translate for me. FlasherZ seems pretty good the last few days at such things.
     
  15. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    Actually you haven't explained it 4 times. You've just said it's logical that they must instantly disable it.

    Here is one of the attempts.
    Doesn't explain why instantly disabling it is so paramount. 5 seconds of warning would be too much?
     
  16. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    I think you're saying:
    1. Autosteer engaged.
    2. Two lane road predicted.
    3. Autosteer warning.
    4. Two lane road encountered.
    5. Autosteer disengaged.

    Imagine 2 is not possible, which makes 3 not possible. That leaves us with 1, 4, 5 which implies instant disabling.

    "But wait, can't you do...
    1. Autosteer engaged.
    4. Two lane road encountered.
    4.1 Warn
    4.2 Wait 5 seconds
    5. Autosteer disengaged."

    The existence of 4.2 implies "never autosteer on 2 lane road" is violated.
     
  17. Andyw2100

    Andyw2100 Well-Known Member

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    For a minute there I forgot what thread I was in, and thought I was reading one of the HP threads! :)
     
  18. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

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    This 'no autosteer on two lane roads' rule is a Tesla self imposed rule, not a law from up on high. I'd imagine they could give you 5 seconds of unanticipated two lane roads to take over considering they released the software allowing it to work anywhere at any speed. Should me the law that says 'Autosteer disengaged' must happen the millisecond the system realizes it is on a two lane road potentially putting the driver's safety at risk. I expect it in a 1) 2) 3) format.
     
  19. brianman

    brianman Burrito Founder

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    Like I said, apparently we use the word "never" differently. Also you seem to be misunderstanding the premise that started this whole discussion. It was about a theoretical "never" not something coming from Tesla.
     
  20. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    #20 stopcrazypp, Dec 8, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2015
    I think his point is that this premise is false in the first place. If you go back to the "nanny" modes of other cars, they also use a timer. They don't cut you off immediately for having your hands off.
     

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