Autopilot and v7 coming this Thursday! (15-10-15)

[Andyw2100]

Looks like Tesla updated the Model S and Design Studio with new autopilot verbiage.

Speaking of verbiage, was anyone else surprised to see that in the blog post Tesla is still talking about the ultrasonic sensors operating at all speeds?

Musk had made the statement about "all speeds" at the D launch, but when various aspects of the Auto Pilot software that relied on these sensors only operated within certain speed ranges, I assumed it was because Musk's statement at the D launch was not accurate. If Tesla is still making that statement now, perhaps it is accurate, but then why are so many of the autopilot functions speed-restricted, and just what does "positioned to sense 16 feet around the car in every direction at all speeds" mean?

 

[NOLA_Mike]

Speaking of verbiage, was anyone else surprised to see that in the blog post Tesla is still talking about the ultrasonic sensors operating at all speeds?

Musk had made the statement about "all speeds" at the D launch, but when various aspects of the Auto Pilot software that relied on these sensors only operated within certain speed ranges, I assumed it was because Musk's statement at the D launch was not accurate. If they are still making that statement now, perhaps it is accurate, but then why are so many of the autopilot functions speed-restricted, and just what does "positioned to sense 16 feet around the car in every direction at all speeds" mean?

I'm thinking they technically operate at all speeds but there is a certain speed above which 16 feet is just not enough distance to safely make any decisions.

 

[Andyw2100]

I look forward to waking up tomorrow to dozens of threads and posts of "I got it" , "I didn't get it" , "What times is it?" to read while I drinking my morning coffee.

[/dirkhh mode on] Everyone should remember to update the Firmware Upgrade Tracker here Tesla Firmware Upgrade Tracker Web App after receiving and installing the update. Thanks! [/dirkhh mode off]

 

[brianman]

I'm thinking they technically operate at all speeds but there is a certain speed above which 16 feet is just not enough distance to safely make any decisions.

This sounds like the horsepower discussion, sadly.

 

[wk057]

Well, I'm calling shenanigans. It's Thursday here and no update. It's also mid-afternoon Thursday in Australia and no reports of 7.0 installs. Must be vaporware.

 

[brianman]

Well, I'm calling shenanigans. It's Thursday here and no update. It's also mid-afternoon Thursday in Australia and no reports of 7.0 installs. Must be vaporware.

That reminds me... I'd love to see the South Park take on this feature set.

 

[Andyw2100]

I'm thinking they technically operate at all speeds but there is a certain speed above which 16 feet is just not enough distance to safely make any decisions.

Assuming that is true, this sounds kind of similar to, though far less important than, the way the horsepower issue was (fill in the blank, so that I don't start a controversy in this thread--misrepresented, confused, overstated, exaggerated, poorly-articulated--pick your favorite, or a different one--I'm really not bringing this up to have this discussion here.) I mean what do they do at all speeds that matter to us? All we care about is their function, as it applies to how they help keep us safe. If they "work" at all speeds, but not well enough to accomplish anything over a certain speed, then I would argue that for the purposes of representing them to us, they don't actually work at all speeds.

This isn't a big issue for me at all. I'm bringing it up because of the principle involved.

Edit:

This sounds like the horsepower discussion, sadly.

Exactly! You beat me to it, because as usual, I was wordier!

 

[kirkbauer]

Totally off-topic, and I apologize in advance, but this reminds of a late-90's flick called Ronin (reference to Seppuku halfway through the movie), which had AWESOME car chases through Paris and Nice! Totally worth checking out *runs and finds the DVD to watch again soon* :biggrin:

Yeah, incredible car chases, especially against the flow of traffic.

 

[spentan]

Well, I'm calling shenanigans. It's Thursday here and no update. It's also mid-afternoon Thursday in Australia and no reports of 7.0 installs. Must be vaporware.

Rofl, they're specifically gonna deliver your 7.0 update on Monday at 23:59PM PDT j/k

I'm in SoCal, connected to 150Mbit Wi-Fi, (tho its over poverty 2.4GHz), hoping for a notification on the app tomorrow morning for installation, but I ain't holding my breath

 

[wk057]

Rofl, they're specifically gonna deliver your 7.0 update on Monday at 23:59PM PDT j/k

I'm in SoCal, connected to 150Mbit Wi-Fi, (tho its over poverty 2.4GHz), hoping for a notification on the app tomorrow morning for installation, but I ain't holding my breath

I set the ringtone for my "Tesla is downloading something" alert message to the Metroid item collect sound. (The Metal Metroid version as heard here at 2:32: Stemage: Metroid Metal - Item Room/Item Collect - YouTube )

Edit: Honestly, if a few people get it and post about it here I'll be happy to at least see it rolling out.

 

[Andyw2100]

Here's an interesting, and somewhat troublesome excerpt from an Engadget article:

Tesla takes the wheel: driving a Model S hands-free

"That confidence spills over into the Auto Lane Change feature. While in Autosteer, I attempted to automatically move to the left lane. A vehicle was approaching at a rather quick pace on my left and the car wouldn't complete the move on its own. At that point, it got a little too careful and wouldn't automatically move itself into any lanes. After having the passenger turn the feature off and then back on again (just like a router, but speeding down the highway), I was switching lanes (when it was safe) without checking my blind spots or even grabbing the wheel. For someone that's completely obsessed with safe driving, it's unnerving letting the car take over like this. But with a quick brake tap or slight turn of the steering wheel, I was back in control."

Here are my concerns.

For starters, the writer was apparently changing lanes without checking first to see if it was safe to do so. If a writer who should be at least somewhat knowledgeable about the car and features he is writing about can mistakenly do this, what's going to happen when this feature makes it into wide release? I lay some of the blame for this at Tesla's feet. They are still marketing that feature, as recently as today's blog post, in a way that I would describe as "exaggerating its abilities." This is what Tesla is saying: "Autopilot allows Model S to steer within a lane, change lanes with the simple tap of a turn signal, and manage speed by using active, traffic-aware cruise control. When writing about tapping the turn signal, Tesla does not say anything about "after the driver has checked to make sure that it is safe to change lanes."

The other thing that caused me some concern was the fact that after a failed attempted lane change, the Model S would not change lanes at all while lane-keeping was engaged, and the author's copilot had to disable and re-enable the mode before a lane change could be completed. I would hope that simply tapping the brakes or taking the wheel and steering would also have allowed the author to change lanes, but he doesn't say one way or the other.

 

[anxman]

It's 10pm here in California. I wouldn't be surprised if they start pushing updates at 11:59pm, first downloads starting overnight.

 

[eloder]

Here's an interesting, and somewhat troublesome excerpt from an Engadget article:

Tesla takes the wheel: driving a Model S hands-free

"That confidence spills over into the Auto Lane Change feature. While in Autosteer, I attempted to automatically move to the left lane. A vehicle was approaching at a rather quick pace on my left and the car wouldn't complete the move on its own. At that point, it got a little too careful and wouldn't automatically move itself into any lanes. After having the passenger turn the feature off and then back on again (just like a router, but speeding down the highway), I was switching lanes (when it was safe) without checking my blind spots or even grabbing the wheel. For someone that's completely obsessed with safe driving, it's unnerving letting the car take over like this. But with a quick brake tap or slight turn of the steering wheel, I was back in control."

Here are my concerns.

For starters, the writer was apparently changing lanes without checking first to see if it was safe to do so. If a writer who should be at least somewhat knowledgeable about the car and features he is writing about can mistakenly do this, what's going to happen when this feature makes it into wide release? I lay some of the blame for this at Tesla's feet. They are still marketing that feature, as recently as today's blog post, in a way that I would describe as "exaggerating its abilities." This is what Tesla is saying: "Autopilot allows Model S to steer within a lane, change lanes with the simple tap of a turn signal, and manage speed by using active, traffic-aware cruise control. When writing about tapping the turn signal, Tesla does not say anything about "after the driver has checked to make sure that it is safe to change lanes."

Why should Tesla be singled out when people abuse car features?

People abusing Autopilot are far less likely to cause an accident than someone abusing say, the feature to turn off electronic stability control, or the ability to browse the web while moving.

Hold the presses, let's not release AP until it's absolutely perfect because someone might abuse it!

The other thing that caused me some concern was the fact that after a failed attempted lane change, the Model S would not change lanes at all while lane-keeping was engaged, and the author's copilot had to disable and re-enable the mode before a lane change could be completed. I would hope that simply tapping the brakes or taking the wheel and steering would also have allowed the author to change lanes, but he doesn't say one way or the other.

To me, that sounds entirely more like a feature than not. If a driver is irresponsibly trying to change lanes into objects constantly, the sensors may assume that the situation is abnormal and requires manual guidance. No different than when the system slows down and stops itself if you don't take over after repeated ignored warnings, rebooting the system will reset this safety feature as well.

Wouldn't be the first time that a software feature prevents stupid.

 

[omarsultan]

Tesla does not say anything about "after the driver has checked to make sure that it is safe to change lanes."

My understanding is the car will not change lanes if there is a car in the lane and if you try and manually change lanes with a car there, it will resist the lane change to some degree--Elon mentioned something along these lines at the X reveal--could be wrong though--as the owner of a "classic MS" I haven't been following the features all that closely.

 

[Stoneymonster]

My understanding is the car will not change lanes if there is a car in the lane and if you try and manually change lanes with a car there, it will resist the lane change to some degree--Elon mentioned something along these lines at the X reveal--could be wrong though--as the owner of a "classic MS" I haven't been following the features all that closely.

Andy is referring to changing lanes into a rapidly overtaking car that the rear sensors will not be able to detect. You should always check your mirrors.

 

[Andyw2100]

Why should Tesla be singled out when people abuse car features?

People abusing Autopilot are far less likely to cause an accident than someone abusing say, the feature to turn off electronic stability control, or the ability to browse the web while moving.

Hold the presses, let's not release AP until it's absolutely perfect because someone might abuse it!

Did I say anything that approaches any of the above?

I'm merely suggesting that Tesla may be exaggerating one of the features with the language they are using to describe it in such a way that may cause confusion and may possibly cause accidents, and that it is unnecessary.

 

[anxman]

My understanding is the car will not change lanes if there is a car in the lane and if you try and manually change lanes with a car there, it will resist the lane change to some degree--Elon mentioned something along these lines at the X reveal--could be wrong though--as the owner of a "classic MS" I haven't been following the features all that closely.

This is correct. One of the video reviews from today (I think it was Wired or Jalopnik) said that the car wouldn't change lanes once it detected something that posed a risk in the next lane over. It was extremely sensitive to it, actually.

 

[GregTexas]

My understanding is the car will not change lanes if there is a car in the lane and if you try and manually change lanes with a car there, it will resist the lane change to some degree--Elon mentioned something along these lines at the X reveal--could be wrong though--as the owner of a "classic MS" I haven't been following the features all that closely.

If it's depending on the current blind spot monitoring then I would not trust that another car is not there.

 

[Andyw2100]

Andy is referring to changing lanes into a rapidly overtaking car that the rear sensors will not be able to detect. You should always check your mirrors.

Exactly.

Thank you.

- - - Updated - - -

This is correct. One of the video reviews from today (I think it was Wired or Jalopnik) said that the car wouldn't change lanes once it detected something that posed a risk in the next lane over. It was extremely sensitive to it, actually.

The car has no rear radar. The rear ultrasonic has a range of something like 16 feet. As drivers we need to check our mirrors to make sure we are not attempting to change lanes into a lane with a car coming up from behind us rapidly, as the Model S would not be able to know it was there until it was quite close.

 

[Troy]

The car has no rear radar. The rear ultrasonic has a range of something like 16 feet. As drivers we need to check our mirrors to make sure we are not attempting to change lanes into a lane with a car coming up from behind us rapidly, as the Model S would not be able to know it was there until it was quite close.

Andy,

I agree with you. I'm surprised so few people understand or see any problem. Maybe this is because the problem is not well defined. The problem is, Tesla's advertisement gives the impression that drivers don't have to check rear view mirrors or the rear camera before initiating an autopilot lane change. If there happens to be a speeding car coming from behind on that lane, the MS will get rear ended. The range of the ultrasonic sensors is only 16 feet (this was mentioned in a Tesla blog post). That means if the approaching car is driving only 10 miles faster than the MS, the MS won't see the car until 1 second before the impact which is not enough time to move away.

Without a rear radar, the Model S can't see behind. There was a Toyota engineer who said he would eat his hat if Tesla can do auto lane change even with a rear radar. Tesla uses terms like "Auto lane change" and descriptions like "automatically change lanes by tapping the turn signal" (example). Nowhere is any mention of manually checking mirrors or the camera to make sure the lane is clear.

The latest blog post adds even more to the confusion. It gives the impression that the MS will look behind and change lanes only after the lane has cleared. Of course that's not what Tesla meant to say. They are talking about cars within the 16 feet range.

Unfortunately the misunderstanding is very common. Here are some examples:
CNET: "Highway lane changing is interesting. You can do it by just signalling." Source: video at 2:12
Autolog: "It's got lane change assist. Basically all you have to do to change lanes is just tap the indicator and the car will actually do itself when it's safe to do so." Source: video at 3:42
Tesla test driver: "It's gonna change the lane for me. It looks of course". Source: video at 1:12

The solution is to display a message that says "Always make sure the lane is clear before initiating a lane change." This message can be displayed shortly after lane change is complete. The idea is, it would take lots of lane changes until there happens to be a speeding car coming from behind that can't stop in time. It would be a shame if a driver was rear ended on the 35th lane change but there was no reminder at all in previous 34 lane changes and the driver thought there is no need to check the mirrors.

I think it would be better not to use terms like "auto lane change" or "automatically change lanes". Overstating the capabilities is not a good idea. It will do more harm. If Tesla's own test driver misunderstands the feature, maybe there is a problem with the advertisement.