Autopilot goof. Good thing I was paying attention :)

[Kilotango74]

No, absolutely not. For reasons you provide and more. Thus to find the limit of what it is useful for you can't stop there. QED Knightmare is out in the weeds.

. It’s also not the consumers job to find the limits of a system. That is the manufactures responsibility, to test it in a safe environment and not in the public by the public. This isn’t the same thing as testing a beta version of the latest iOS on your phone, and Tesla treating it as such just to rush FSD is irresponsible. Also don’t you see the potential issues that arise from people pushing that envelope and consistently publishing their results via YouTube. It give AP and Tesla a negative connotation. We are lucky that Tesla hasn’t geofenced AP, or for that matter that there isn’t legislation in place to limit its use. It’s like the Wild West of autonomous driving right now.

 

[SammichLover]

It’s also not the consumers job to find the limits of a system.

Apparently not, unless my pay check got lost in the mail?

That is the manufactures responsibility, to test it in a safe environment and not in the public by the public.

This stuff does get tested on public roads. That's generally the "test environment" for stuff that has gotten to this point. Stuff that isn't even to this point.

Also don’t you see the potential issues that arise from people pushing that envelope and consistently publishing their results via YouTube.

Sure there is potential, if you go too far. That's why lecturing about "personal responsibility" is standing reality on its head here. Aim it at people that do it in an actually unsafe manner, like oranges wedged in the steering wheel and such, rather than pontification about a CYA statement that you have readily admitted doesn't match with reality.

Really I don't push it all that much, just go where it obviously leads. It is actually something that makes things safer long term, learning about the system and what it can and can't do.

 

[Kilotango74]

No, absolutely not. For reasons you provide and more. Thus to find the limit of what it is useful for you can't stop there. QED Knightmare is out in the weeds.

Apparently not, unless my pay check got lost in the mail?

This stuff does get tested on public roads. That's generally the "test environment" for stuff that has gotten to this point. Stuff that isn't even to this point.

Sure there is potential, if you go too far. That's why lecturing about "personal responsibility" is standing reality on its head here. Aim it at people that do it in an actually unsafe manner, like oranges wedged in the steering wheel and such, rather than pontification about a CYA statement that you have readily admitted doesn't match with reality.

Really I don't push it all that much, just go where it obviously leads. It is actually something that makes things safer long term, learning about the system and what it can and can't do.

hey people are going to do what people are going to do. When they post videos saying “ hey look what AP did, I will continue to point out that AP purely acted in the manner for which it is currently intended to. That’s it. I’m not trying to pass judgement. Personally I’m an engineering manager that works with systems test engineers for an aviation company in the defense industry. I’m a little swayed by my own experience on how I think a company should responsibly test its product. I feel that Tesla is using us, the consumer, to test AP and use that info to develop it to the point that FSD is ready. Watching these AP failure videos makes me believe that it isn’t ready to public use and I feel it is irresponsible on behalf of Tesla. Sure it’s tested on public roads but it shouldn’t be the public actually doing that testing.

 

[daniel]

To repeat what I've said before: Autopilot is a Level 2 feature. That means the driver must be alert and ready to take over at any time. I've had the car try to go into the wrong lane. When it starts to do this, I override it. Easy peasy. I think it's fine to test its limits when safe to do so. And I'm always interested to hear the results of such tests. The more we know where the car cannot manage, the more alert we'll be in those situations. Information makes us all safer. And it cannot be said too many times: AP is a Level 2 driver-assist feature that is well ahead of the competition but still requires an alert driver ready to take over at any moment.

 

[Kilotango74]

To repeat what I've said before: Autopilot is a Level 2 feature. That means the driver must be alert and ready to take over at any time. I've had the car try to go into the wrong lane. When it starts to do this, I override it. Easy peasy. I think it's fine to test its limits when safe to do so. And I'm always interested to hear the results of such tests. The more we know where the car cannot manage, the more alert we'll be in those situations. Information makes us all safer. And it cannot be said too many times: AP is a Level 2 driver-assist feature that is well ahead of the competition but still requires an alert driver ready to take over at any moment.

Absolutely correct, unfortunately too many people treat it as though it were more

 

[Knightshade]

Sure there is potential, if you go too far. That's why lecturing about "personal responsibility" is standing reality on its head here. Aim it at people that do it in an actually unsafe manner

You mean like the original poster who told us he runs autopilot "everywhere", provided video of himself operating it on roads it's explicitly stated by the MFG it's not intended for- and ending up going the wrong direction in the oncoming lane, because he didn't immediately correct the car and wanted to see what would happen, and then came here to post how it was autopilot and not himself that goofed?

We did aim it at exactly such a person.

You're being an apologist for him. And not a very good one.

 

[daniel]

Tesla clearly states in the owner's manual what the car is not intended to do. But Tesla uses terms like "autopilot" and "full self-driving" which are seen by people who don't read the manual. Elon Musk, (who BTW is one of my favorite people for bringing us these amazing cars) is an extreme chrono-optimist and makes bold pronouncements that are heard by tens of millions of people, but which are nothing but the hopes and dreams of a man with the courage to try to make them happen. The result is that a lot of people have a very over-inflated perception of what the cars are supposed to be able to do.

Add to that the fact that many of the warnings in the manual are there because of lawyers, and that these cars function well beyond the limits of the warnings in the manual, and the waters are further muddied.

Autopilot is entirely capable of operating on city streets, as long as we remember that it's Level 2 and requires constant attention.

 

[bcsteeve]

Yeah, that. Perfectly said.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

it seems I had to provide steering wheel tension for it to engage in a lane change it wanted.

Finally tried it today. Was pleasantly surprised that all the people complaining about how the torque requirement had been increased were full of it. Apparently those people just weren’t holding the wheel before (as I suspected)! Mine just changed lanes on its own, without any input required, just holding the wheel in the normal way, with both hands at 9 and 3, nice and firmly like a normal driver. Did ok. Obviously it is still not smart about optimizing speed through light traffic even in Mad Max mode, but that would be next level stuff anyway, so I did not expect that. Was not disappointed! Really quite happy with it. I only had to disengage or provide input 3 or 4 times over 15 miles.

 

[bcsteeve]

The oxymoron of driving... having your hands at 9 and 3 "like a normal driver"... then what is the point? If that's how you drive all the time, including when using AP, then you must feel like you wasted that money, no?

 

[daniel]

The oxymoron of driving... having your hands at 9 and 3 "like a normal driver"... then what is the point? If that's how you drive all the time, including when using AP, then you must feel like you wasted that money, no?

That's the really surprising thing, for me, anyway: because even though I have my hands on the wheel (for me it's genrally 10 and 4 rather than 9 and 3) my mind is freed from the task of constantly micro-managing the steering to keep the car centered in the lane. Instead, I have more mindfulness of potential problems and more awareness for situations when I need to take over. On a long drive in the Tesla I arrive relazed and rested. By contrast, on the same drive in the Prius, after 6 or 7 hours in the car (even with a couple of rest stops) I arrive exhausted.

I think I never realized how much mental energy was going into steering on straight highways, until I didn't have to do it. I will be delighted when I no longer have to keep my hands on the wheel, but holding my hands there is only one small part of the ovrall work of driving a car. I long ago quit playing the game of "see how much time I can keep AP engaged" and I now use it when it can relieve me of part of the work and stress. And used this way, the car and I together are a better driver than I am alone. And safer.

Getting EAP was the best money I ever spent.

Full disclosure: I've never enjoyed driving as a leasure time activity. I drive to get to where I want to be.

 

[seattlite2004]

That's the really surprising thing, for me, anyway: because even though I have my hands on the wheel (for me it's genrally 10 and 4 rather than 9 and 3) my mind is freed from the task of constantly micro-managing the steering to keep the car centered in the lane. Instead, I have more mindfulness of potential problems and more awareness for situations when I need to take over. On a long drive in the Tesla I arrive relazed and rested. By contrast, on the same drive in the Prius, after 6 or 7 hours in the car (even with a couple of rest stops) I arrive exhausted.

I think I never realized how much mental energy was going into steering on straight highways, until I didn't have to do it. I will be delighted when I no longer have to keep my hands on the wheel, but holding my hands there is only one small part of the ovrall work of driving a car. I long ago quit playing the game of "see how much time I can keep AP engaged" and I now use it when it can relieve me of part of the work and stress. And used this way, the car and I together are a better driver than I am alone. And safer.

Getting EAP was the best money I ever spent.

Full disclosure: I've never enjoyed driving as a leasure time activity. I drive to get to where I want to be.

Maybe its the Prius...try the same drive (maybe too late since you are moving) w/o autopilot in the Model 3 and compare your fatigue level with the Prius.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

The oxymoron of driving... having your hands at 9 and 3 "like a normal driver"... then what is the point? If that's how you drive all the time, including when using AP, then you must feel like you wasted that money, no?

As others said, just frees me up a little bit to focus further in the distance on the freeway, and focus less on small steering and speed adjustments, which is actually perhaps a safety benefit.
I got EAP knowing full well I would have to hold the steering wheel (just like the FSD folks will) and that that will never change. So feel like I am getting what I expected. The lane changing without confirmation is pretty cool - zero input required; after reading this forum I thought it would be, but glad nothing is needed. That’s actually more than I anticipated I would get.

 

[bcsteeve]

Well, despite the manualnazi dissent, I agree that AP makes me a more attentive driver. Unlike you, I don't keep my hands on the wheel at all times and the nags do annoy me especially since it requires way more force than it should (I'm always yelling, "I am touching the wheel!"). But my attention to traffic further down the road and to the sides is greatly improved with AP engaged.

 

[SammichLover]

. Obviously it is still not smart about optimizing speed through light traffic even in Mad Max mode, but that would be next level stuff anyway, so I did not expect that.

I've found it meaningfully better than it was when it first came out. Good enough that I'm now willing to use from time to time it due to curiosity. I don't find it good enough that it solves anything for me, no life improvement, at this point but progress nonetheless. It is getting better and reading the traffic well ahead, and I'm understanding why it is making the lane changes it is, even if I wouldn't make the same lane change choices because of somewhat different priorities.

One weird thing though is that a few times now I've had it completely disable NoAP in the settings in-between uses, so when I expected it to come on it wouldn't be there and I'd have to go to Park and then go through the Autopilot setting to turn it back on. It might be related to my weekend, er, recreational actives. Perhaps it either doesn't like the way I'm driving (without Nav engaged or anything, so why is that its business?) or it doesn't like the presence of extended [TMPS] errors? Needs more investigation.

 

[SammichLover]

I’m not trying to pass judgement.

 

[bcsteeve]

I got my hand slapped and one or more of my posts on this thread was removed for "snippiness". I apologize to the community and participants and especially whoever reported my post if whatever I said offended your sensibilities and/or you feel it had the potential to make your TSLA values decline. I am unsubscribing from this thread now.

 

[Leafdriver333]

I apologize also.
I cannot remember whether I replied to this thread or not but I don't see my post on this page so it might have gotten deleted by a moderator if I posted a message yesterday evening. But I am not sure if I did or not. The weekend went by way too fast.

 

[daniel]

Maybe its the Prius...try the same drive (maybe too late since you are moving) w/o autopilot in the Model 3 and compare your fatigue level with the Prius.

It's a reasonable suggestion from a scientific point of view, but not from a personal one. EAP feels so much better to me that I'm not going to spend seven hours in the car without it just to perform an unblinded N=1 experiment. I'm sure that 7 hours in the 3 without EAP would be less tiring than 7 hours in the Prius because the 3 is a more comfortable car. But I'm also sure that 7 hours with EAP is far less stressful than 7 hours without it. And safer. I'm not going to perform an experiment that involves being less safe than necessary.

And, as you speculated, it's too late anyway. I'm in my new home and my car is on the way here.

 

[RFernatt]

I think this scenario is similar to the problem I've been experiencing on mountainous interstates (which is where I have a use for AP). When a truck lane is starting the AP wants to center itself in the widening lane, then it sees a new line starting right in front of the car and either goes ungracefully to the left scaring passengers or aborts, especially if the truck lane is starting a curve with any real bend or rise where it can't get much of a look ahead. Here's an example, although this one isn't bad since you can see ahead, but AP does not handle these gracefully.

I also do not like AP going to the left on entrance/exit ramps when the lane widens and then swerving back over. It's unnerving. If there was only one of these situations every 25 miles or so, maybe it wouldn't be too bad, but in the mountains, every couple miles there is a truck lane and/or entrance/exit ramps. I'm sure it's better in the flat lands, but needs more work in the mountains.