Autopilot lane keeping still not available over 6 months after delivery

[NoMoGas]

Interesting choices of words in the video above. when it comes to autonomous cars..."other car companies will follow. But....of course...we will be the leader".

So many other manufacturers have more advanced autonomous driving features than Tesla right now...Honda, Hyundai, Mercedes, BMW, Volvo, just to name a few. It would be very hard to make the case that Tesla is a leader in autonomous driving at the moment.

What company is offering POSITIVE STEERING CONTROL in the US? Not "lane assist" which tesla has or brake driven lane assist but actual motorized control of the steering wheel?

 

[donv]

Mercedes Distronic Plus does that. So does Infiniti Active Steering, although since the Infiniti is steer by wire (no mechanical connection between the steering wheel and the wheels), I don't know if actually moves the steering wheel or just commands the wheels to turn.

What company is offering POSITIVE STEERING CONTROL in the US? Not "lane assist" which tesla has or brake driven lane assist but actual motorized control of the steering wheel?

 

[bonnie]

(Haven't kept up with this thread, admittedly.)

I've been thinking more about this issue, the horsepower issue, the "gas savings" nonsense, range discrepancy, etc.

While too late for this year, I think this is the making of a shareholder proposal that could actually get some traction (unlike the recent vegan nonsense).

Basically a proposal to require Tesla to clear up such representations immediately and in the future. Some bullet points that may make sense:

• State clearly which features are actually available *today*. No features that are not yet available shown anywhere on the order page unless explicitly and very obviously stated as a not-yet-active/available feature and that the buyer would be prepaying for it's future delivery.
• State actual combined output horsepower for each model along with or in lieu of the less than useful "motor" power numbers.
• The first and most prominent price shown for the vehicle is the amount a buyer would write a check to Tesla for. After/below that price any savings from gas, tax credits, etc can be shown.
• No present tense verbiage for any features that are not available at the time it is displayed on the website or elsewhere.
• Any upcoming features, after clearly being described as not yet available or will not be available immediately upon delivery, will have a clear price for the prepaid-purchase of that future feature/item and a final set date by which Tesla will guarantee that item will be made available or otherwise delivered to the customer in it's entirety.
  • If the feature/option is not delivered/available by that date then the customer is entitled to request and immediately receive a no-questions-asked full refund of the feature's prepaid price any time after that date and up until the feature is actually available.
  • The customer is allowed the option to, at a later time once the feature is actually available, purchase the feature from Tesla for the original price plus 5% of refunded amount. Or at their discretion the customer can continue to wait indefinitely.
• Warranty miles and time elapsed on parts specific to pre-paid features that are not otherwise able utilized by the buyer until feature delivery (re: autopilot steering control) will not start until the date the feature is made available.

Probably a ton of other stuff, but I think if done correctly and with a lot of community input this could definitely gather support.

Those are good suggestions. Some would say they're common sense. I would add one more:

-require approval from engineering/manufacturing departments prior to any public statement from management or marketing regarding the availability or timing of new features.

Sorry guys, you've crossed the line from 'shareholder proposal' to 'we're going to micromanage specific aspects of running the company'. These items are not at the right level for a shareholder proposal.

 

[schonelucht]

Sorry guys, you've crossed the line from 'shareholder proposal' to 'we're going to micromanage specific aspects of running the company'. These items are not at the right level for a shareholder proposal.

Also, while I am sure these proposals are in the interest of Tesla consumers, I am not so sure they are in the interest of Tesla shareholders.

 

[stopcrazypp]

(Haven't kept up with this thread, admittedly.)

I've been thinking more about this issue, the horsepower issue, the "gas savings" nonsense, range discrepancy, etc.

While too late for this year, I think this is the making of a shareholder proposal that could actually get some traction (unlike the recent vegan nonsense).

Basically a proposal to require Tesla to clear up such representations immediately and in the future. Some bullet points that may make sense:
...
Probably a ton of other stuff, but I think if done correctly and with a lot of community input this could definitely gather support.

Those items are fine to suggest to Tesla as a consumer, but I don't think those proposals will go over well with shareholders. Your suggested items add a lot of excess liability to Tesla with little benefit to the company. Like I suggested to the vegan proposal, you need to frame the proposal in a way that shows how it will benefit Tesla (the company) to go with such a proposal.

 

[Matias]

I strongly recommend participants in this thread read Ashlee Vance's biography of Musk before evaluating his public timeframes. He can certainly be criticized for them (and has, and is..) but the book provides a lot of insight into what's going on there. It helps one to evaluate these kinds of statements in the future as well, which helps with managing your own expectations.

On top of that, it's a good read. And also well narrated if you choose to listen to the audio version - great for a road trip (speaking from experience).

But, you know he is selling cars to normal people, not just to Apostles. Of course we here in the Cult of Tesla know that.

- - - Updated - - -

While too late for this year, I think this is the making of a shareholder proposal that could actually get some traction (unlike the recent vegan nonsense).

Yes

 

[WarpedOne]

Those items are fine to suggest to Tesla as a consumer, but I don't think those proposals will go over well with shareholders. Your suggested items add a lot of excess liability to Tesla with little benefit to the company. Like I suggested to the vegan proposal, you need to frame the proposal in a way that shows how it will benefit Tesla (the company) to go with such a proposal.

True, but remember Elons position that company that is bound by shareholder expectations is bound to fail. The moment CFO becomes CEO is game over.
He might listen if words are right, but exactly because he IS the CEO, he might not. It is his company and his word.

 

[hpham007]

Sorry guys, you've crossed the line from 'shareholder proposal' to 'we're going to micromanage specific aspects of running the company'. These items are not at the right level for a shareholder proposal.

I'm not seeing it as micromanagement. He's basically proposing that Tesla be honest with their claims and expectations. I don't see anything negative about it.

 

[WarpedOne]

Good marketing and being honest have little in common.
Honest marketing is failed marketing.

 

[bonnie]

I'm not seeing it as micromanagement. He's basically proposing that Tesla be honest with their claims and expectations. I don't see anything negative about it.

Then that's what the proposal should state - but deciding exactly how much money should be returned if a determined amount of days pass or who must approve before making public statements is micromanagement.

I didn't say it was negative, btw. That's your interpretation, not mine. My point is that shareholder proposals are not meant to run the company. Proposals set direction. Company management determines how that direction is achieved.

 

[hpham007]

Good marketing and being honest have little in common.
Honest marketing is failed marketing.

Well, shame on us to expect Tesla to have more integrity and honesty than the corner used car lot..

 

[dsm363]

Should the cash price be on top? Maybe but it's no longer hidden on a different screen. It's very clearly written in the same size font right below it. I no longer see this as an issue.

 

[wk057]

I did say that such a proposal would need to be refined based on community input. I didn't say that exactly what I posted would be a such a proposal, just bullet points to be addressed in some fashion.

 

[Andyw2100]

Should the cash price be on top? Maybe but it's no longer hidden on a different screen. It's very clearly written in the same size font right below it. I no longer see this as an issue.

While I don't see this as a major issue, and agree that having the prices in the same size typeface is better, I think the way they are displayed now, with the lower number first, and then the deductions is still somewhat confusing, and more importantly, gimmicky. Any reasonably intelligent person is going to recognize it for what it is. I think it makes Tesla seem more common--like most other car makers. And it's just not necessary.

I think if a shareholder proposal like the one wk057 suggested is to be made, part of it should be a confidence booster for Tesla management: us telling them that they never have to do anything less than be 100% honest and straight forward in their marketing of the Model S because the Model S is just that good!

 

[TexasEV]

Should the cash price be on top?

Yes the cash price should be on top. This shouldn't even be a question. The first price someone sees should be the price of the car. Anything else appears to be "dealerism" or worse.

 

[Electricfan]

Good marketing and being honest have little in common.
Honest marketing is failed marketing.

I wish everybody was this honest about their thoughts. I don't agree, but just love straight talk from anybody like this. If we could all talk so plainly at least we'd reach the core of our disagreements more quickly and start solving our differences.

Deception always come back to haunt you. GM has a horrible rep, well earned, for deceiving to the public, leaving people driving cars that shut off and kill them, basically operating on the principle that money is all that matters. Honest marketing is good marketing, in the long run. Lies are failed marketing, in the long run. GM is the poster boy that proves this.

 

[hpham007]

GM has a horrible rep, well earned, for deceiving to the public, leaving people driving cars that shut off and kill them, basically operating on the principle that money is all that matters.

Doesn't Tesla issues with the drive unit and contactor also leave drivers with a sudden loss power on the streets? How is this different from the GM issue?

 

[dsm363]

Yes the cash price should be on top. This shouldn't even be a question. The first price someone sees should be the price of the car. Anything else appears to be "dealerism" or worse.

It should be on top but this is hardly 'dealerism or worse'. They obviously want to highlight to people what the potential cost of this car is after incentives and gas savings. Nothing wrong with that. If people are confused by that then that's on them. It's in nice big font what is going on. I seriously doubt anyone buying this car would be confused by the way it's written now. If they are then they've probably never bought anything in their life that didn't have a * next to it (TV on sale for $1,000* (*after mail in rebate) for example).

 

[perkiset]

• State clearly which features are actually available *today*. No features that are not yet available shown anywhere on the order page unless explicitly and very obviously stated as a not-yet-active/available feature and that the buyer would be prepaying for it's future delivery.
• State actual combined output horsepower for each model along with or in lieu of the less than useful "motor" power numbers.
• The first and most prominent price shown for the vehicle is the amount a buyer would write a check to Tesla for. After/below that price any savings from gas, tax credits, etc can be shown.
• No present tense verbiage for any features that are not available at the time it is displayed on the website or elsewhere.
• Any upcoming features, after clearly being described as not yet available or will not be available immediately upon delivery, will have a clear price for the prepaid-purchase of that future feature/item and a final set date by which Tesla will guarantee that item will be made available or otherwise delivered to the customer in it's entirety.
  • If the feature/option is not delivered/available by that date then the customer is entitled to request and immediately receive a no-questions-asked full refund of the feature's prepaid price any time after that date and up until the feature is actually available.
  • The customer is allowed the option to, at a later time once the feature is actually available, purchase the feature from Tesla for the original price plus 5% of refunded amount. Or at their discretion the customer can continue to wait indefinitely.
• Warranty miles and time elapsed on parts specific to pre-paid features that are not otherwise able utilized by the buyer until feature delivery (re: autopilot steering control) will not start until the date the feature is made available.

By my calculation you probably spent somewhere in the 170K zone, I only spent about 111. I was thoroughly clear on what I was purchasing before I clicked Order. There was no mystery, no misrepresentation. I was completely informed and am utterly delighted with my car because I took care of myself. Looking at all car ads today, I'd not expect ANY company to proudly advertise anything other than a marketing price - certainly not what I'll actually pay for the car. Nor do I believe the gas mileage claims, or frankly bluetooth claims of phone perfection or the subtle inference that I'll get laid more if I purchase (that) car. Welcome to America and American marketing.

Is the above notion just sour grapes or naivety? Tesla is a high-tech play. - a computer with huge torque. How are they different than Microsoft, Apple ... heck, IBM, Monstanto, SAP, EMC, Google, NetApp? I understand we want Tesla to be honest, but in fact they are - the wording is market spun but it's not a lie. I don't understand why we'd expect them to be any different than any other company that sells such things.

I love what I got and I got what I bought. A fantastic driving experience with the Christmas-present like nature of updates to the car - something I've never had with any other car and I love it. More features and capabilities as they figure them out and implement them. Safely, and well tested. If someone chooses to make a 100K+ purchase and isn't completely up to date on what they're getting, I just feel sorry for them because of how uncomfortable it must be to have your head that deep in the sand.

 

[Ocelot]

It should be on top but this is hardly 'dealerism or worse'. They obviously want to highlight to people what the potential cost of this car is after incentives and gas savings. Nothing wrong with that. If people are confused by that then that's on them. It's in nice big font what is going on. I seriously doubt anyone buying this car would be confused by the way it's written now. If they are then they've probably never bought anything in their life that didn't have a * next to it (TV on sale for $1,000* (*after mail in rebate) for example).

disagree. highlight it differently then. it comes across as misleading at BEST. One of the reasons I invest in Tesla is I appreciate Elon's honesty. This is at odds with that. Is not Tesla trying to blaze a new different trail? No need for asterisks! No one likes asterisks. Probably all of us at some point have been confused over the fine print of things and it leaves a bad taste in your mouth when you feel there was no just plain downright upfront, honesty. As for "i seriously doubt anyone buying this car would be confused....". Well I feel that is somewhat presumptuous. If they were buying a different car is there more, less, or equal chance they might be confused?


"There's a darkness upon you that's flooded in light
And in the fine print they tell you what's wrong and what's right
And it flies by day and it flies by night
And I'm frightened by those that don't see it

There was a dream and one day I could see it
Like a bird in a cage I broke in and demanded that somebody free it
And there was a kid with a head full of doubt
So I'll scream til I die and the last of those bad thoughts are finally out." ---avett brothers, head full of doubt