Autopilot Still in Beta? Edmund's Review

[alcibiades]

Umm. Sure. Tesla is constantly revising the system making it more unsafe.

Notice you gave no evidence the revisions are reducing the safety.

Since I never said that the revisions are reducing safety, it is not surprising that I didn't give evidence for such a claim. Notice, I also gave no evidence that my hair looks great today.

Let's take away a feature that the NHTSA has determined is 40% safer.

Question! What feature did NHTSA determine is 40% safer? (clue: this is a trap.)

 

[dsvick]

Tesla no longer uses the AP system that was studied by the NHTSA. This is what you call "a fact" and facts often make up what people call "evidence".

Here are more facts:

1. NHTSA published a study on AP1, which is the MobileEye system. (https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2016/INCLA-PE16007-7876.PDF)

2. Tesla removed the system studied in 1. (Mobileye Ends Partnership With Tesla - WSJ or -- if you prefer a different flavor -- Tesla Breakup With Mobileye Turns Ugly - Bloomberg)

3. Tesla replaced it with a different system, call it AP2. (All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware ...)

4. NHTSA has not published a study of the new system.

5. To assert that AP in current Teslas (i.e. AP2) is 40% "safer" relies on an association fallacy.

I accept chase quickpay. Slide into dm's, bb.

True, but regardless of version, they still have autosteer and AEB, both of which were found to be 40% safer. Since the autosteer in EAP does the same thing as the autosteer in AP1, we can assume that would have similar effect on safety.

 

[alcibiades]

True, but regardless of version, they still have autosteer and AEB, both of which were found to be 40% safer. Since the autosteer in EAP does the same thing as the autosteer in AP1, we can assume that would have similar effect on safety.

That is exactly what the association fallacy is.

 

[DR61]

I notice that Volvo has an auto steering system called Pilot Assist 2. It seems more similar to Tesla's system than Cadillac's in that it detects driver's hand pressure on the steering wheel, and is not restricted to freeways. Some people also seem to want to defeat Volvo's protection such as this guy:

Perhaps Tesla should use the interior camera to detect head position as well as steering wheel pressure to keep people from trying to defeat the system's protections.

 

[Legolad]

Right but you didn't pay $5,000 for Gmail and still don't pay anything for it.

Oh we're paying for it alright. And the coin of the realm is everything we do online.

 

[adaptabl]

Is AP really safe to use? Having a system that works 90% is worse than not having no system. The driver can get complacent with AP and then when the system fails the driver is not fully engaged in driving. Maybe there will be a class action law suite to refund AP cost for existing owners? One could argue that the system is not what was promised to buyers. I think it is almost criminal to offer buyers an option for level 5 when they are so far away.

 

[drawfour]

One could argue that the system is not what was promised to buyers.

What system was promised to buyers that is not fulfilled by Autopilot. It's a level 2 system. That means the driver must watch the road with his hands in position to take over at all times. That is stated in the documentation, you have to accept that agreement. That is stated in the purchase agreement. So what is promised that has not been delivered?

FSD is something people are paying for now with the promise of it being delivered later. AutoPilot is not FSD.

 

[dsvick]

Is AP really safe to use? Having a system that works 90% is worse than not having no system.

Yes, it is safe to use, the NHTSA report specifically says that, when used correctly, it is safer to use than not. Someone becoming complacent and is "not fully engaged" is not using it correctly and is no longer as safe as someone who is using it properly.

Next question .....

 

[nvx1977]

Serious question for those of you that are just fine having "beta" AP released to the public:
How many of you would let your grandparent/just-got-license kid/other no-so-hot driver (trying not to age discriminate) using AP alone without any qualms?

I love this question, because it gets right down to the core of the issue. If said grandparent or newly licensed driver was a capable and responsible driver, I would have no qualms letting them use an EAP car. If not a capable or responsible driver, I would not let them touch an EAP car, a Tesla without EAP, a muscle car, a luxury car, or anything else of value. I'll recommend a used Honda Civic.

I'll make a comparison to photography. Someone sees an amazing photo, and they likely first ask, what camera did you use to take that? When the real question should have been, who took that photo and where did they learn to shoot like that? Because good photographers can take an awesome photo with the world's crappiest camera. It won't be because the camera had the world's best Enhanced AutoFocus, or even AutoFocus in "beta."

And so it goes with driving a car well and being safe.

 

[DR61]

Is AP really safe to use? Having a system that works 90% is worse than not having no system. The driver can get complacent with AP and then when the system fails the driver is not fully engaged in driving.

AP auto steering function and the other steering assist systems (Caddy, Volvo, etc.) require the driver to be engaged by using various methods (camera, steering wheel sensors, etc). But some drivers choose to try to beat the safeguards, despite continuous warnings. See the video I posted above. The driver has to be held accountable for trying to defeat the system's safeguards. The same goes for TACC and other adaptive cruise controls; they all require the driver to remain engaged because the systems are not able to safely control speed except when they have a radar lock on a moving car directly ahead.

 

[xav-]

Looks like one of these Edmund's guys TRUSTS Supercruise more than Autopilot and states Supercruise is truly hands free while autopilot aint.

I like how people take this seriously. The “journalists” get all sorts of freebies from GM and there is a ton of advertising revenue. Of course Supercruise is going to win.

It gets so ridiculous that when supercruise does not work, the journalists conclude that “it’s awesome that it doesn’t work because it means the system and GM want to keep us safe”.

 

[xav-]

My simple proposal to Edmunds for a supercruise vs autopilot contest:

Don’t be creative! Rather than only testing Supercruise as designed, let’s use BOTH systems as designed.

A simple test: LA to San Diego with both systems, then keep track of two metrics:
1/ number of disengagements
2/ % of time on Autopilot/Supercruise

Pretty simple

 

[etmax]

No comment necessary.
Robin

I have an MS75D without advanced auto pilot and self driving and mine tried to steer me into a car I was overtaking. Mine also gives lane departure warnings sometimes while crossing a line even though I have my indicators on. There are a few quirks in there, and I'm not prepared to put my life in the computer's hands for a while yet, especially at those prices. If it was a couple of thousand it might have bragging rights value, but we pay around $14,000 for it, and it would want to be a hell of a lot better than I am.

 

[CBPfromTN]

No comment necessary.
Robin

All I have to say is "Please, Mr

No comment necessary.
Robin

Ugh....all I have to say is: "PLEASE, Mr. Weaver. It is NOT TEZ-LA. Stop saying that. It is so annoying and so distracting from the message at hand. TESS-LA......NOT TEZ-LA" Thank you.

 

[Henry82]

How did the Cadillac know about the construction zone? Is it pulling live information from Google Maps or Waze? Does that mean the map of the "highways that GM has blessed" is constantly being expanded and new map data is being pushed to the car?

 

[jsmay311]

Ugh....all I have to say is: "PLEASE, Mr. Weaver Musk. It is NOT TEZ-LA. Stop saying that. It is so annoying and so distracting from the message at hand. TESS-LA......NOT TEZ-LA" Thank you.

Fixed it for you.

If you wanna go after someone for pronouncing it TEZ-LA, you might as well go after the CEO and public face of Tesla first.

 

[Unbeliever]

TESS-LA......NOT TEZ-LA" Thank you.

He's following Musk's lead. Musk pronounces it with a Z, though he doesn't care how every one else pronounces it.

Though the odd thing, I've heard Musk pronounce the historical figure's name (Nikola Tesla) correctly with the sibilant S, even though he pronounces the company name with the Z sound.

--Carlos V.

 

[CBPfromTN]

He's following Musk's lead. Musk pronounces it with a Z, though he doesn't care how every one else pronounces it.

Though the odd thing, I've heard Musk pronounce the historical figure's name (Nikola Tesla) correctly with the sibilant S, even though he pronounces the company name with the Z sound.

--Carlos V.

Thanks, Carlos. So, it's not just ME, I see. I don't know why it bothers me so much...