"Autopilot unavailable for remainder of drive"

[NeoDog]

Whenever I see this infuriating alert, it makes me want to jump out of the car and let it drive itself into the ocean.

This punitive alert appears when you "miss" multiple apply light force to steering wheel warnings -- the alert means you can't use autopilot until you next park the car. When this happens to me (it has happened somewhere between 5 and 10 times now), I've invariably had my hands on the wheel with my eyes straight ahead. The repeated "hold the wheel" warnings are too subtle to get my attention and the force required to prevent the warning is more force than is required to actually steer the car most of the time, so holding the wheel in a natural fashion alone doesn't satisfy the car.

In other words, preventing the "autopilot unavailable" penalty requires specific attention. The irony is that I'm a lot better at avoiding the penalty when I'm doing anything but paying attention to the road (tuning the radio, sorting through postal mail, straight-razor shaving, sponge-bathing, trying out my latest Stitch Fix, etc), so the warning is not doing a lot to encourage good behavior. If it does anything, it distracts me from paying attention to the road.

These are the changes I believe I've observed over the course of many months that have made this experience worse (subject to memory):

• The "apply light force to wheel" warning used to be accompanied with reliable chimes. Now it doesn't seem to chime every time, and if it chimes, apparently I've already been awarded a strike.
• The warning used to include white pulses at the top and bottom of the instrument panel. Now it just pulses at the top, which is completely occluded by the steering wheel with my positioning, so that element is completely invisible to me. (the only ergonomic means of making it visible would involve surgical height reduction)
• The warning used to give more time to supply the input it's looking for.
  
• It used to be more sensitive to forces applied to the wheel (I think?). Since the warning started having teeth, I have frequently applied a variety of torques in response, but the warning often doesn't go away until the 3rd or 4th effort. I can't count the number of times I've jerked the wheel in frustration to the point that autopilot disengages completely. Probably half the time the car is concluding I "missed" a warning when in reality it just wasn't satisfied by my conscious input.

If I'm driving for miles in the same highway lane with autopilot on, I have no legitimate reason to look at the dash, my only concerns are the physical dangers out there on the road. The subtle warnings in the dash simply aren't enough to draw my attention. Furthermore, when Autosteer is engaged, it does a good enough job now that no actual force from me is needed to drive pretty good lines, so I hardly ever find myself adjusting it anymore. I've experimented with strategies like "constant force" or "wiggle at random" just to keep the warnings away, but these are at least very annoying and at worst an unnecessary strain on my joints, one that I don't actually experience when I'm driving without autosteer.

I'd be happier if the car occasionally jerked on the steering wheel to make sure I was paying attention: if I could feel the warnings, I'd rarely miss them. Of course, the most obvious fix is to do a better job of detecting my hands on the wheel; "light force" doesn't actually work right now, it's more of a "carpal-tunnel-inducing force". But at the very least I need the warning to work harder at drawing my eyes down from the road and not penalize me for not staring constantly at the dash.

Maybe I should try using an orange... does that still work???

 

[widodh]

I hate this as well. I have my hands on the wheel. I now have the habit of just wiggling the wheel a bit and applying pressure. I HATE it when this message pops up. It pops up way to often as well. Like every 15 seconds or so. Although it seems that it's a calculation based on the speed you are driving. At slower speeds the nag is less.

Nevertheless, I truly hate this of Autopilot.

 

[McRatToo]

Sidebar =
The Jaguar i-Pace also gets false 'put your hands back on the wheel error' on certain roads, but not others. Luckily it doesn't force a restart to re-engage it. It has a 20 second check interval. It's system is not feedback torque though. Not sure how it works. Your hands must be at 10 and 2 to turn off the warning. Putting them at 6 o'clock and tweaking the wheel will not work. Somehow it knows where your hands are.

On Topic: I would not use anything that could possibly fall and get underneath the pedals. Whatever you use should be secured to the wheel. Good luck.

EDIT - Whoopie! I have an Edit button now!

 

[trm2]

I think twerking the wheel would be REALLY dangerous.

 

[McRatToo]

I think twerking the wheel would be REALLY dangerous.

But it is socially acceptable today. If I said, "Act like a spaz" or "pretend to be epileptic" some folk get their panties in a knot.

New member, no Edit button.

EDIT - Now I can.

 

[Az_Rael]

Instead of jerking the wheel, it could give the same vibration it does for lane assist. That would give tactile feedback without potentially jerking the car.

My theory is there is a variation on the wheel torque sensor over different cars as to how much actual force is required to dismiss a nag. Some folks here can keep a single finger literally just touching the wheel and that is enough. I tried that, but that was not enough for my 3, it needs the “autopilot grip” which is like a firm handshake grip and a continuous pull down on one side of the wheel.

I took my car in to the service center to see if it could be adjusted, but no luck. I was told the service center can’t change that and that “it is set at the factory”. If anyone ever manages to get the service center to adjust that, I would like to know.


In the end, I have just learned what I call the “AP grip” to keep the nags at bay. It is enough of a constant pull that whenever I dismiss AP with the brakes, the car jerks to the side I am holding and I have to correct. It is tiring on long trips, so I switch hands periodically to rest the other one.

 

[ewoodrick]

Whenever I see this infuriating alert, it makes me want to jump out of the car and let it drive itself into the ocean.

This punitive alert appears when you "miss" multiple apply light force to steering wheel warnings -- the alert means you can't use autopilot until you next park the car. When this happens to me (it has happened somewhere between 5 and 10 times now), I've invariably had my hands on the wheel with my eyes straight ahead. The repeated "hold the wheel" warnings are too subtle to get my attention and the force required to prevent the warning is more force than is required to actually steer the car most of the time, so holding the wheel in a natural fashion alone doesn't satisfy the car.


If I'm driving for miles in the same highway lane with autopilot on, I have no legitimate reason to look at the dash, my only concerns are the physical dangers out there on the road.

I would entirely disagree that you have no legitimate reason to look at the dash, just the opposite. Any self-respecting driving educator should tell you that you should be scanning the dash periodically. You should be checking, speed, gas, all of the instruments for abnormal indications. Since you don't that's a great indication that you have become over-reliant on cruise control. Try driving down the Interstate about 30 miles and keeping your speed +/2 of a specific speed limit. I believe that you will start to find it hard to even keep your eyes on the road.

But, in general, blah, blah, blah, get used to it. It's going to be here for a number of years, even with FSD, it will be here until all states can change their laws.

 

[Ciaopec]

Whenever I see this infuriating alert, it makes me want to jump out of the car and let it drive itself into the ocean.

This punitive alert appears when you "miss" multiple apply light force to steering wheel warnings -- the alert means you can't use autopilot until you next park the car. When this happens to me (it has happened somewhere between 5 and 10 times now), I've invariably had my hands on the wheel with my eyes straight ahead. The repeated "hold the wheel" warnings are too subtle to get my attention and the force required to prevent the warning is more force than is required to actually steer the car most of the time, so holding the wheel in a natural fashion alone doesn't satisfy the car.

Holding the steering wheel in this fashion or resting my hand on the lower portion of the wheel satisfies the warning in my car (AP1-2016).

Maybe your sensors are bad?

I agree with one of the other posters: As a pilot I drive like I fly constantly checking the mirrors; back to the speed and battery level; outside ahead a few cars ahead; back to the mirrors. AP works great to allow that level of attention IMHO.

 

[lolder]

"Light force" is confusing. What the car wants to see is "light torque" but most people don't know what that is either. Torque is turning force. Grabbing the steering wheel and squeezing if wont work. If you ever had a car that was a little out of alignment, the tires were asymmetrically worn, or you were driving on a crowned road and the car wanted to drift slightly from a straight path, the force required to keep it straight is what's needed. Merely resting either hand on either side of the steering wheel suffices. The weight of the hand/lower arm is enough. Everybody calm down and use this method and you'll never see another "nag".

 

[Darmie]

I was put in the penalty box twice on one trip. The issue is at some points it take a bit more speed to maneuver in left lane before changing back to right lane. When you speed up, the warning comes so quick, you are focusing on holding the wheel and watching traffic that you lose AP. The warning hold the wheel comes up so quick, it’s too late to move the steering wheel while you are ensuring you stay going straight.

 

[kirkbauer]

I agree that the entire system is horribly designed, and it is the only way in which my car has become worse than when I bought it 3.5 years ago. Tesla uses "applying pressure on the steering wheel" as a proxy for "paying attention to the road", but of course it isn't. I can hold the wheel while ignoring the road. I can pay great attention to the road without touching the steering wheel.

And I know that Tesla has to respond to incidents, but the way they respond make the problem worse. They are really focusing on the holding the wheel aspect of Autopilot. When the person ran right into the back of the stationary firetruck, Tesla's response primarily focuses on how many warnings the driver received and how many seconds the driver wasn't holding the steering wheel.

In other words, because the driver had his hands off of the wheel for 45 seconds he obviously wasn't paying attention. That's false logic.

Here is the proper response: the driver plowed right into the back of a stationary firetruck without applying any brakes. THAT is all the evidence we need to know that the driver wasn't paying attention to the road. All of the other metrics are irrelevant.

 

[Rockster]

It frustrates the heck out of me that my safe, two handed grip on the wheel, does not satisfy the AP nag because the force from my hands is symmetrical and doesn't apply torque. Therefore, AP forces me to only hold the wheel with one hand, which is obviously less safe.

It also frustrates me that this entire situation was brought about by idiots who were irresponsible with the technology. If we had never had YouTube videos with people napping in the back seat and fire truck collisions and all that we would likely still have a nag every 15 minutes or so. (This is why we can't have nice things!)

I completely agree that Tesla's response is misguided and has diminished my enjoyment of the AP technology.

 

[Az_Rael]

Merely resting either hand on either side of the steering wheel suffices. The weight of the hand/lower arm is enough. Everybody calm down and use this method and you'll never see another "nag".

Just the weight of my hand/arm is not always enough to satisfy the nag. I am a petite female, so maybe that has something to do with it, but I have to actively pull down on one side. And, yes, I have taken the car into the service center for that. It is not something they can adjust.

 

[kirkbauer]

Just the weight of my hand/arm is not always enough to satisfy the nag. I am a petite female, so maybe that has something to do with it, but I have to actively pull down on one side. And, yes, I have taken the car into the service center for that. It is not something they can adjust.

Yeah, I can see that. I'm a 200# guy and I have to make sure my hand is high enough on the side of the wheel in order to put enough torque for it to detect me. If I put my hand lower it might not detect it.

 

[kavyboy]

But if you get drunk and fall asleep with one hand on the wheel (I'm guessing that's what happened), that satisfies the "staying alert" criteria.

 

[Silicon Desert]

I guess this is one of those things that Tesla will be damned if they do and damned if they don't. Annoying for some to be bothered by it, yet I wonder how many law suits would come from relatives of drivers killed in a Tesla claiming the car let the drivers continue driving even after multiple warnings and they dozed off. Personally, I have now driven 20,000 miles on the X, mostly freeway from state to state on autopilot and never gotten put in the penalty box, so I don't know what I am doing differently. So far, it hasn't annoyed me at all.

 

[drewg123]

Holding the steering wheel in this fashion or resting my hand on the lower portion of the wheel satisfies the warning in my car (AP1-2016).

As a previous poster mentioned, the sensors seem to be tuned to different amount of torque in different cars. In my AP2.5-2017 MX, I have to apply enough force that if AP were not engaged, I'd quickly steer into the ditch. Applying that much torque to the wheel goes against habits formed over 30+ years of driving. It reminds me of driving one of the old junkers that I had as a teenager that desperately needed an alignment.

 

[kirkbauer]

As a previous poster mentioned, the sensors seem to be tuned to different amount of torque in different cars. In my AP2.5-2017 MX, I have to apply enough force that if AP were not engaged, I'd quickly steer into the ditch. Applying that much torque to the wheel goes against habits formed over 30+ years of driving. It reminds me of driving one of the old junkers that I had as a teenager that desperately needed an alignment.

I have serious concerns about that myself. On a few occasions I have had the "take over immediately" thing happen, and in those cases I already knew the situation was sketchy so I had both hands on the wheel and was ready.

However, when I'm just cruising and letting AP drive and hanging my arm on one side of the steering wheel, if the car suddenly did "take over immediately" and disengaged autopilot I could likely be in a dangerous position depending on what was to my right and how quickly I could react. If AP was to turn off with my arm on one side at high speed my vehicle would definitely make a dangerous maneuver.

 

[NeoDog]

I would entirely disagree that you have no legitimate reason to look at the dash, just the opposite. Any self-respecting driving educator should tell you that you should be scanning the dash periodically. You should be checking, speed, gas, all of the instruments for abnormal indications.

I concede that my language was hyperbolous, but you did struggle to come up with an example that was relevant to EVs. Battery and tire pressure are relevant, but they really don't require frequent checks. Speed is relevant, but cruise control keeps me legal (well, within 20% of legal, anyway), and by looking out windows and at mirrors I can keep my speed safe. Clearly I do need to check speeds through speed changes, but I only have this auto-nag problem over significant distances of no change anyway. During such drives, the only thing that has me checking the dash constantly is the hands-on-wheel detection. If there was an altimeter and gyrometer, and if airspeed and velocity were different measures, that would be another matter, but it's not a plane.

​

Try driving down the Interstate about 30 miles and keeping your speed +/2 of a specific speed limit. I believe that you will start to find it hard to even keep your eyes on the road.

I don't need to run this experiment, I know it's true (it's actually worse in a tesla, where you have to hold the accelerator just to coast). That's why autopilot is so great! It lets me focus more on the threats the car might not see... like objects in windows and mirrors. That's how I can add the most safety to the car.

Now, if the 360 obstacle detection worked better (rather than looking like a buggy video game with other cars bouncing drunkenly around me all the time), I might pay more attention to that, since it could expose blind spots. As it is, I only glance at that view when I'm interested in changing lanes.

Anyway, it's not like I'm ignoring the dash completely, but I can easily (and safely) go two minutes without checking it, and that has been plenty long enough to trip the penalty.

 

[NeoDog]

I have serious concerns about that myself. On a few occasions I have had the "take over immediately" thing happen, and in those cases I already knew the situation was sketchy so I had both hands on the wheel and was ready.

However, when I'm just cruising and letting AP drive and hanging my arm on one side of the steering wheel, if the car suddenly did "take over immediately" and disengaged autopilot I could likely be in a dangerous position depending on what was to my right and how quickly I could react. If AP was to turn off with my arm on one side at high speed my vehicle would definitely make a dangerous maneuver.

In my experience the torque required to disengage (even in "take over immediately" scenarios) is significantly greater than the torque required to convince the car you're holding the wheel. Am I wrong about this?

It's kind of annoying since it's usually the case that I've effectively already taken over steering when the "take over immediately" message appears (except for those unpredictable autonag penalty scenarios), but the need for an unmistakable hand-off of control is understandable. So control isn't really mine until I wrest it from the car or tap the brake.