Battery health tracking SS

[outdoors]

From @AlanSubie4Life’s charging constant thats 69.3 kWh, so 11% capacity loss from the ”full pack when new” (77.8 kWh) (and also some of the EPA tests).


Reading your posts make me think you have missed quite much of my regular content in the posts?

I very often state that high SOC is not near as bad as the myth. In many cases 80% is tester by research to wear more thN 90-100% (calendar aging wise).

Also doing complete 100-0% cycles (real zero %, not 0% on the screen) has proven to make the Panasonic cells do about 700-750 full cycles. This is equivalent to 700 to 750 times 400 km = about 300.000km or 200K miles. View attachment 970757

So, there is absolutely no need to not go to 90 or 100% if needed.
There is also no danger of leaving the battery at 100% overnight. It will not wear noticably more than it would have at 80%.

I had about 35 full charges om my M3P before I sold it after 2.5 years.

For supercharging, which mainly wear by lithium plating, it might be good to know that low SOC and small cycles at low SOC specially have a healing effect on lithium plating after supercharging. Plated Lithium returns to cycleble lithium and the capaceah I just can't accept the numbers on my S. 30% historical supercharger use. 50% last year.

just can't accept the numbers on my S. 30% historical supercharger use. 50% last year.

I just can't except the numbers on my Model. S 30% historical supercharger use 50% last year and almost no change.
The miles don't mesh with your numbers or charts. Didn't I just read a piece about how supercharging isn't that bad? That was recent research however..... I have followed every post you have made since you started the battery talk.

On the 3 I just don't see how one could make my numbers much better for the miles even with your suggestions. Again for the miles and calendar....a futile exercise

My guess is that at ten years you will see the numbers go back to what they are for masses. Efforts won't succeed as much as one thinks. Wish you all the luck however.

Yes money does matter. Whether it's degradation or wear. One has to buy a car at some point. So is the effort(time) to do this exercise if it doesn't fit ones daily needs.

Which is my point. You will not convince large groups of people for mass EV adoption when they're used to looking at a gas tank and it says full and they want it full all the time. They might never use it. Darn it. They will never use it all at once. So one either has to change the batteries or just accept that the batteries are just fine the way they are and use them as we need and let the BMS do the work.


And for the disagreements I keep the disagreements to this thread. I disagree with what you are promoting and the exercise behind it. Some people are being childish and taking it to a personal level on the other threads. Surely we can do better than that as long time members here on the Tesla community forum. I disagree with @AlanSubie4Life. @Rocky_H on this, but appreciate other elements of contributing here.

@msinfo going into people's status updates to give thumbs down. Come on. Surely you can do better than that. Bet you were jealous looking at all the travel I get to go in all those awesome pictures. Like how you down voted the good ones. https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/members/outdoors.27441/ enjoy anyone else doing the same.

 

[msinfo]

@msinfo going into people's status updates to give thumbs down. Come on. Surely you can do better than that.

+1

PS Annoying right to see all these notifications with no replies, reasons what's so ever?

 

[flixden]

I just can't except the numbers on my Model. S 30% historical supercharger use 50% last year and almost no change.
The miles don't mesh with your numbers or charts. Didn't I just read a piece about how supercharging isn't that bad? That was recent research however..... I have followed every post you have made since you started the battery talk.

On the 3 I just don't see how one could make my numbers much better for the miles even with your suggestions. Again for the miles and calendar....a futile exercise

My guess is that at ten years you will see the numbers go back to what they are for masses. Efforts won't succeed as much as one thinks. Wish you all the luck however.

Yes money does matter. Whether it's degradation or wear. One has to buy a car at some point. So is the effort(time) to do this exercise if it doesn't fit ones daily needs.

Which is my point. You will not convince large groups of people for mass EV adoption when they're used to looking at a gas tank and it says full and they want it full all the time. They might never use it. Darn it. They will never use it all at once. So one either has to change the batteries or just accept that the batteries are just fine the way they are and use them as we need and let the BMS do the work.


And for the disagreements I keep the disagreements to this thread. I disagree with what you are promoting and the exercise behind it. Some people are being childish and taking it to a personal level on the other threads. Surely we can do better than that as long time members here on the Tesla community forum. I disagree with @AlanSubie4Life. @Rocky_H on this, but appreciate other elements of contributing here.

@msinfo going into people's status updates to give thumbs down. Come on. Surely you can do better than that. Bet you were jealous looking at all the travel I get to go in all those awesome pictures. Like how you down voted the good ones. https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/members/outdoors.27441/ enjoy anyone else doing the same.

There really are some cool pics in your profile posts!

 

[outdoors]

+1

PS Annoying right to see all these notifications with no replies, reasons what's so ever?

Not to go into semantics, how many posts do you see on this thread from me? I think quite a few. Plenty of responses. Plenty of dialogue. You just didn't like it. Let's try to get back on topic.

Thanks for fixing those down votes.

 

[msinfo]

Not to go into semantics, how many posts do you see on this thread from me? I think quite a few. Plenty of responses. Plenty of dialogue. You just didn't like it.

No, not your posts and you know it.

PS FYI I changed the reactions. It was not the point.

" Let's try to get back on topic."

+1 Completely agree

 

[outdoors]

No, not your posts and you know it.

PS FYI I changed the reactions. It was not the point.

+1 Completely agree

Sorry but I disagree with what you're supporting and continuing on to give dialogue to. I don't find it helpful to the broader EV movement. It really is that simple. While @AAKEE is free to do what he likes. I don't think it's productive.

Want to have a BMS that learns your driving behavior and characteristics to optimize your battery charging or something like that. Go ahead have that button on the car. Getting people to play arithmetic on the other things I don't think is necessarily a great idea and when you ask most people they will just slide the charger to what is they feel more comfortable with.

I'm a little more brash than the average person and the down votes and the disagreements don't bother me. Sharing my view. If you notice the other people that disagreed with me, they came in and shared their view too. Wholesale disagreeing and then not leaving anything well that's just not cool.

Doing charging exercises such as this just confuses the average person. Do I have to go out and pay for a focus group on my own?

 

[Rocky_H]

You will not convince large groups of people for mass EV adoption when they're used to looking at a gas tank and it says full and they want it full all the time.

That's a strange idea. People don't do that with their gas cars. They don't go to the gas station every day to keep their gas tanks full.

I disagree with what you are promoting and the exercise behind it.

There isn't any "promoting". That's where you are off base. Some people are asking, here, in an enthusiasts forum, about what would be the most ideal thing if they want to pursue that. So that information is being given in answer to that question. What you are pretending is going on is that we are out there telling the public "This is what you all MUST do!" Sure, you would be right, that it would be a dissuading thing if that were happening...but it isn't.

 

[msinfo]

Sorry but I disagree with what you're supporting and continuing on to give dialogue to. I don't find it helpful to the broader EV movement. It really is that simple. While @AAKEE is free to do what he likes. I don't think it's productive.

Want to have a BMS that learns your driving behavior and characteristics to optimize your battery charging or something like that. Go ahead have that button on the car. Getting people to play arithmetic on the other things I don't think is necessarily a great idea and when you ask most people they will just slide the charger to what is they feel more comfortable with.

I'm a little more brash than the average person and the down votes and the disagreements don't bother me. Sharing my view. If you notice the other people that disagreed with me, they came in and shared their view too. Wholesale disagreeing and then not leaving anything well that's just not cool.

Doing charging exercises such as this just confuses the average person. Do I have to go out and pay for a focus group on my own?

You've made your position very clear and while I strongly disagree with it I respect it.

 

[jjrandorin]

No, not your posts and you know it.

PS FYI I changed the reactions. It was not the point.

" Let's try to get back on topic."

+1 Completely agree

(moderator note)

TMC does not allow "weaponizing" of reactions. It can result in various moderator actions, if a mod determines its happening.

Before someone says "How can you tell when someone is reacting to a topic, vs hunting down someones posts and reacting negatively to them as a weapon?" The answer to that is, after doing this a while, "you know it when you see it".

 

[AAKEE]

He and I have talked in the past and I believe that I posted it to him.

I did not find any message from you at least.

That photo would sort a lot of things out.
No guesses about original range etc.

 

[outdoors]

That's a strange idea. People don't do that with their gas cars. They don't go to the gas station every day to keep their gas tanks full.


There isn't any "promoting". That's where you are off base. Some people are asking, here, in an enthusiasts forum, about what would be the most ideal thing if they want to pursue that. So that information is being given in answer to that question. What you are pretending is going on is that we are out there telling the public "This is what you all MUST do!" Sure, you would be right, that it would be a dissuading thing if that were happening...but it isn't.

Let me rephrase when someone is told that they can have a range of let's say 300 miles and then they find out that it takes time to recharge the car and they have to go someplace to recharge that car quickly or wait at home they will lean towards..... I don't know what the unknown is. Give it to me all tonight so I wake up with a full charge.

At one point in time there weren't gas stations on every corner like there are now. Just like there aren't fast chargers everywhere now. People are creatures of habit of the ability to put gas in the tank in a short time is something that gas still has right now.

And to think I was on one of those focus groups with I assume was Audi or VW. They asked very little about battery health. Wanted to know about routines and convenience.

Really comparing car washes now are we?

If I look at the moderator who responded in the above post I have noticed he says almost often that that is one of the most common questions asked and most started forum. Threads is about battery health and charging. They have to merge them on a regular basis.If you look at the number one responder to those threads, it is one of the aforementioned parties. So that's my view of promoting if someone's always there to chime in because they can it's promoting.

I made my point perfectly clear as others have mentioned. Good luck to you all.

I do love ONR for my wash, but have wash passes on 3. WYOW

 

[AAKEE]

And the energy screen, AFAIK, gives the current answer based upon the current BMS guess. And that's not valid.

The energy screennis based on the nominal remaining, which in turn is based on the nominal full pack number.
Using Scan My Tesla we see that the nominal full pack number and the nominal remaining usually follows very closely.
No more difference than about 0.3-0.4kWh, so max about 2km.

The energy screen is valid, as it is based on the best guess from the BMS.

(The BMS can be fairly off but in that case we still have both the full range and nolinal full pack off).

The only real way to show the capacity is to use the energy screen (except Scan My Tesla). The energy screen is black on white clear, no more guessing.
Also, to make your statement, you need to show the data behind it.
As the laws of nature will affect your car/battery as well, there really isnt any possibility that the battery is ”like new” after using it for extended time at high SOC.

I saw another post recently where someone posted their estimated range over a few years. It was obviously impacted by the BMS, because it varied over 10%. True 100% charge range doesn't vary like that.

True 100% charged range vary just like that.

The BMS estimates the capacity over time by looking into delivered energy vs SOC change. If the car has a estimated capacity of 75 kWh, when charging to 100% the nominal remaining will be very close to the nominal full pack.
This is extremely clear from using SMT with logging on a every day basis.

 

[AAKEE]

Let me rephrase

I didnt find much info anout your model S.
(probably is in a post but couldnt find it).

What model (P85D etc) and year, and what range do you see on screen at 100% now?
There is a selection on earlier model s for displayed range, it need to be the correct setting to see the EPA equivalent range (Rated range).

 

[Rocky_H]

and then they find out that it takes time to recharge the car

Wow. They are going to be floored when they find out it always takes time to go gas up a car. *eyeroll* With an EV it might or might not take time. Interesting to have that choice.

and they have to go someplace to recharge that car quickly or wait at home

Ah, yes, the old FUD about how it's supposedly called "waiting" when they crawl into their beds, lay their heads down on their pillows, close their eyes, and "wait" for several hours until morning. For humans, that's called "sleeping". That is the best selling point about EVs is that it can take none of your own time to fill it because it happens while you are sleeping instead of having to go some place to a filling station when you're on your way trying to get somewhere.

At one point in time there weren't gas stations on every corner like there are now.

And there weren't gas stations in people's homes...and there never will be.

People are creatures of habit of the ability to put gas in the tank in a short time is something that gas still has right now.

Yeah, having to go to filling stations for gas will always be less convenient than being able to recharge at home.

Wanted to know about routines and convenience.

Yep, that's what will sell EVs.

This anti-EV rhetoric is very familiar, trying to make recharging sound like some horrific burden.

Really comparing car washes now are we?

Not exactly. I said it was treatment of paint. Have you seen how incredibly into it some people get about that? With Mercedes and BMW and Porsche owners, it seems to be one of the most important things they care about, and it certainly extended into Teslas when they were newer and high end. It is meticulous and takes time and dedication and inconvenience to take such great care of your paint by how you wash it and detracts from just using a car as a car instead of a Renaissance painting, but hey, some people really want to talk about that and optimize it. So that's what enthusiast discussion forums are here for, so it was a perfect analogy. And I notice you didn't have a response for it.

If I look at the moderator who responded in the above post I have noticed he says almost often that that is one of the most common questions asked and most started forum. Threads is about battery health and charging. They have to merge them on a regular basis.If you look at the number one responder to those threads, it is one of the aforementioned parties. So that's my view of promoting if someone's always there to chime in because they can it's promoting.

That's ridiculous. It's a club forum! This is that niche place where people who really care about the details come to ask those kinds of questions. It's not the general public. I don't talk about these things with people out in the world, because they don't care that much and aren't asking those kinds of detailed questions.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Battery university can't explain why I have 11% degradation and someone else has 20%.

One of the issues with your early responses here which I disagreed with was that you keep on conflating Battery University with @AAKEE's info. It's not the same information at all.

just can't except the numbers on my Model. S 30% historical supercharger use 50% last year and almost no change.
The miles don't mesh with your numbers or charts.

Look at @AAKEE's inputs to his formula. He does not ask for Supercharger use, AFAIK, from a quick check of his earlier post. Does not impact result.

He was just saying that lithium plating is the potential issue. This seems well managed by Tesla now through battery heating.

You will not convince large groups of people for mass EV adoption when they're used to looking at a gas tank and it says full and they want it full all the time

As mentioned, people don't expect gas tanks to be full all the time.

So is the effort(time) to do this exercise if it doesn't fit ones daily needs.

This takes no more time for me. I just use a different daily charge level, and I'm now better about plugging every time I park in the garage (which saves me time actually, since I don't have to run out to the garage when I realize I've forgotten). When I am going to have higher usage I select a higher charge level (usually 100%), an adjustment I usually did before, anyway.

I've been very clear, repeatedly, in many posts on this forum, that people should just use the charge level that works for them (i.e. fits one's daily needs). It should be comfortable and there should be no fiddling around with realizing that you don't have enough charge for your daily tasks. If that happens, the charge level probably needs to be increased!

I think the car washing analogy is pretty apt. Take care of your car's finish and you might get a few bucks more at resale. But it isn't really necessary. A slightly higher capacity battery has slightly more value to an informed consumer, so you might get a few more bucks for it if the buyer is comparing multiple vehicles. But it isn't really necessary; it only slightly changes the utility of the vehicle.

I did not find any message from you at least.

It's not a photo, but this is the info we have, which I believe is from the 2018 Model 3 LR RWD (not 100% clear but I think it is, from context):

Just recently I've seen an actual charge to 100% and sitting there for a day indicate about 293 miles.

If you look at the number one responder to those threads, it is one of the aforementioned parties

Not sure why we're not naming names, but it doesn't matter.

My objective in my responses is to educate people on how things actually work. There's a lot of misinformation out there and a lot of incorrect guesses about how things work, so when possible, I try to provide evidence-based responses and explain how it actually works. I think overall this is helpful to the forum community.

I'm not intending to "promote" a particular course of action. I just try to explain how things work and leave it up to the owner to make an informed decision based on their needs. I would have liked to have known some of the information from the recent contributions of @AAKEE in the early days of ownership; it would have slightly changed my strategy, with no impact on my ownership experience. Maybe I'd be at 73kWh rather than 72kWh?

I don't know everything, of course, and sometimes I'm wrong. It's good to have corrections to any information I post that may be wrong.

 

[AAKEE]

Look at @AAKEE's inputs to his formula. He does not ask for Supercharger use, AFAIK, from a quick check of his earlier post. Does not impact result.

Thats right, fast charging causes lithium plating, but a preheated / preconditioned battery will reduce the amount of lithium plating.

As it seems, supercharging do not reduce the displayed range much. But lithium plating still happens, and the sum of all lithium plating (if much) in the end causes short circuit in the cells.
I know of a Swedish M3P, that almost always supercharged. I think he had 55.000 kWh supercharged or so when the battery broke down after 230.000km. The car was stable at 12% degradation (checked with scan my tesla) until one or a few cells shorted and the battery had sto be changed.

He was just saying that lithium plating is the potential issue. This seems well managed by Tesla now through battery heating.

Yes it is.

Still, it wears on the batteries so we should perhaps do it when needed for long trips etc, but not on a everyday base.

 

[ewoodrick]

The only real way to show the capacity is to use the energy screen (except Scan My Tesla). The energy screen is black on white clear, no more guessing.
Also, to make your statement, you need to show the data behind it.

It's statements like this that worry me about the "experts"

AFAIK, there is absolutely no way to accurately measure the current capacity of a battery. (aside from counting the electrons)
It's generally all an educated guess.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

AFAIK, there is absolutely no way to accurately measure the current capacity of a battery. (aside from counting the electrons)
It's generally all an educated guess.

You’re right. There is no way to know the actual capacity.

However, for the end user, what matters is what the BMS THINKS the capacity is (primarily because the car will shutdown when it decides there is zero energy left per its estimation).

So this BMS estimate is more important than actual capacity.

That BMS estimate is what is displayed on the aforementioned screen, when the calculation is done properly.

Addendum: the BMS estimate is the world’s best estimate of your battery’s actual capacity. It’s not too bad. There is no way to get closer (as an estimate before the discharge).

 

[AAKEE]

It's statements like this that worry me about the "experts"

AFAIK, there is absolutely no way to accurately measure the current capacity of a battery. (aside from counting the electrons)
It's generally all an educated guess.

Yes, there is several ways.

The BMS do a good job calculating the capacity.
It is also possible to estimate/calculate the real capacity and/or how off the BMS is, all needed is a little longer drive. (I have some posts about this here on TMC).

But we do not need to discuss this at all.
It is not the basic discussion.
If you say yoyr car has lost very little range etc, the energy screen would sort this out.
Very clear, just do it.

 

[ewoodrick]

Yes, there is several ways.

The BMS do a good job calculating the capacity.
It is also possible to estimate/calculate the real capacity and/or how off the BMS is, all needed is a little longer drive. (I have some posts about this here on TMC).

But we do not need to discuss this at all.
It is not the basic discussion.
If you say yoyr car has lost very little range etc, the energy screen would sort this out.
Very clear, just do it.

Yes, it is the very basis of the discussion.

And the fact that you indicate that a longer drive helps the BMS goes to the very core of what I'm talking about.

BMS can not be trusted by itself. You have to know if the BMS has had an opportunity to update it's calculations.

And I don't believe that it is just a longer drive, it's also a charge to 100% and let it sit for a bit (maybe even a day or two to let all the balancing occur).

Then and only then, will the BMS provide a good guess. But again, it's STILL A GUESS!!