Does the preconditioning of the battery change if you're going to a 150KW Tesla Supercharger vs. a 250 KW Telsa Supercharger?
My electric motorcycles show the battery temperature. Should be easy enough for Teslas to show it as well.
-Don- Reno, NV
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Battery preconditioning for CCS-1?
- Thread starter DonTom
- Start date
My electric motorcycles show the battery temperature. Should be easy enough for Teslas to show it as well.
-Don- Reno, NV
Probably. You don't know and I don't know and I'm sure 99.99% of other Tesla drivers don't either. It probably also depends on your battery chemistry and battery age.
The Tesla Roadster also displays battery temperature. You can probably pull it from the CAN bus too. That's irrelevant though.
Sure, are you willing to do the calculation from battery temperature to required temperature to Supercharger power to battery life to battery chemistry, to time to get to your charger, and possibly a who lot of other things to determine when you should push that button?
See where I'm going? We just don't know enough to do what it takes to optimally know when to push a button.
Sure, there can be an app for it. Actually, there already is, it's called a Tesla. You just, apparently, want to be able to override it. Tesla just doesn't want to eat warranty repairs for damage you or your app overriding it badly may do.
I don't know if it is different for that, but Tesla did release an update to vary the preconditioning based on the charger that was being navigated to. Especially for lower power ones like 50kW..
Those must be the Version One Tesla Superchargers. I don't think I have ever even seen one.
-Don- Reno, NV
1. Locate convenient dcfc
2. Navigate to it
3. Preheat
The car protects the battery with the same limits as navigating to a supercharger.
Not asking for much here. A few years ago we had to manually initiate preconditioning on the screen, basically bring that back as an option, and of course the warranty needs to cover it.
Yes, but now Tesla assumes liability if they route you to a DCFC that (like so many) is out of commission, Then they will have to tow you when you arrive out of juice.
I suppose the routing could tell you that you don't have enough range to get to the 3rd party DCFC if you don't also have enough range to make it to a Supercharger as well. Of course, then, if you have that much extra range, they might as well just route you to the Supercharger.
Maybe if 3rd party DCFCs start being somewhat reliable or Americans quit being so self-entitled
Like this:
to blame Tesla for their problems, this will change. However, for now, I certainly don't blame them from having nothing official to do with 3rd party DCFCs.
You have no clue what temperature they set the pack to for preconditioning. How do you know you've never seen one?
Would you know if it pre-heats to, say:
- 95F for a 72 KW Urban SC?
- 102 for a 150 KW V2?
or
- 110F for a 250 KW V3?
I think the above question is rhetorical.
All you clowns are doing is convincing me that you have no clue about batteries or pre-conditionaing and feel self-entitled. You'll be the first ones to screw up your batteries or arrive low on charge and make life tough for Tesla with a law suit or whine on the internet (just as you're doing here about not having a button to self-initiate Supercharger pre-conditioning) about how 'your battery aged prematurely' or 'you arrived at some low-quality DCFC that didn't work That Tesla Sent Me To and left you stranded'.
It only confirms to me that Tesla is 100% right in limiting our access to controlling our cars with regards to battery pre-conditioning.
The V1 Superchargers would be rated at 50 KW, IIRC. And the lowest I have seen for a Tesla Supercharger is 150 KW. But Superchargers are not the issue here, as the navigation works for all of those, as AFAIK.
-Don- Reno, NV
I would think 95°F would be better than nothing on a cold day for a 250KW CCS charger. I never said it had to be exactly at the most efficient temperature if they let us turn in on manually.
-Don- Reno, NV
Would you be ok with the coolest possible temperature and only once per day? That would probably make it idiot proof.
I actually suspect that pre-conditioning isn't really even needed at ~1C low powers (below ~100 KW). I believe it is mostly for ~3C, V3 speeds. IIRC, it wasn't even an issue until V3 Superchargers started rolling out. I don't recall that it was even an option - or maybe I didn't notice.
I don't recall any Superchargers rated below the 72 KW Urban ones. My recollection is that the original V1 Superchargers offered ~80 KW charging (maybe 85KW?). We were so thrilled to even have Superchargers back then that we really didn't pay that much attention to the details of the max power.
The earliest CHAdeMO chargers were 50 KW although the cheap Nissan ones that put the 50 KW ones out of business only offered about 38 KW IIRC. They also needed to have their air filters cleaned regularly or they went out of service. I painfully relied on them one summer while working away from home a lot.
The first generation 1 Superchargers were 90 kW.
I do fully understand why Tesla does not and should not include third party DC fast chargers in their navigation because of their pathetic reliability in general. They do not want to be the ones suggesting those into a route plan, and then it's broken and people get screwed over and blame Tesla for recommending it. That's appropriate, and Tesla should stay away from that.
But then that is exactly WHY they should make a button available to let drivers preheat for charging stations that are NOT in the navigation. And it doesn't need to get into all this false hand-wringing and accusing finger pointing about how drivers can't be trusted to know the exact, precise, perfect, ideal temperature down to the tenth of a degree. That's not necessary. It is fully reasonable for Tesla to make available some warm but still mild-ish temperature target that is helpful to speed up charging, but not harmful to the battery. A comfy shorts and T-shirt 75 degrees isn't going to be a bother to the battery and will certainly allow faster charging than 35 degrees. That keeps things well within warranty protections and still would provide a benefit.
I do fully understand why Tesla does not and should not include third party DC fast chargers in their navigation because of their pathetic reliability in general. They do not want to be the ones suggesting those into a route plan, and then it's broken and people get screwed over and blame Tesla for recommending it. That's appropriate, and Tesla should stay away from that.
But then that is exactly WHY they should make a button available to let drivers preheat for charging stations that are NOT in the navigation. And it doesn't need to get into all this false hand-wringing and accusing finger pointing about how drivers can't be trusted to know the exact, precise, perfect, ideal temperature down to the tenth of a degree. That's not necessary. It is fully reasonable for Tesla to make available some warm but still mild-ish temperature target that is helpful to speed up charging, but not harmful to the battery. A comfy shorts and T-shirt 75 degrees isn't going to be a bother to the battery and will certainly allow faster charging than 35 degrees. That keeps things well within warranty protections and still would provide a benefit.
There are thousands of Tesla owners who have installed the SEXY buttons to allow for battery preheating when charging at non-Tesla DCFCs. I haven't heard of any warranty issues regarding these.
This sounds like nominal temperature for a Li-ion battery. Although I don't have a way to measure it, my assumption is that the pack always tries to get to about 75F when driving - no button required.
It's the more extreme temperatures (~100F) that I associate with pre-conditioning for Superchargers.
"when driving"
Button IS required with this very situation we're talking about! Someone wants to turn on battery heating because it's cold where the car is parked, and they want it to pre warm up some before they get in the car to drive to an Electrify America station that is close-ish, and the car won't have 45+ minutes to warm up from driving.
On a 70 degF day, my 21 M3LR battery temp gets up to 88.7 degF as reported by scanmytesla. This is with no preconditioning, just driving around at 75 mph for about 50 miles. Starting temp was 63 degF.
I can't say that this is the maximum temp, but, the temperature did seem to level off at that point. It also seems to match my recollection driving about an hour from a supercharger to a CCS charger. Although the temperature leaving the supercharger was around 136 degF, by the time time I arrived at the CCS charger (no preconditioning tricks) the temp had fallen to around 86-88 degF.
Unfortunately, I can't say how much power the car could have drawn from the CCS charger at that temp as the charger was derated to 44 kW. That, of course, shows the futility of preheating for CCS chargers. In fact, the car wasted energy (and money) once plugged in by heating the battery for about 10 minutes. This, of course, had no effect on the charge rate.
Really? You think it proves that as an overall general case?
...a day where the battery is already warm and preheating isn't really needed.
...on a charger that was already crippled and couldn't supply higher power where a warmer battery would have mattered.
The FUD is strong with this one.
Ok, you found a case where it makes a little sense.
Luckily, this isn't getting silly /s
I don't, however, think that a button to immediately start pre-conditioning makes sense since it could be abused (see my comments above). However, here, it might make sense to provide the ability to set a timer to pre-condition starting at time t, such that t=Theat-for-proper-temp-for-EA-charger + Ttravel-to-EA-charger + Tavg-to-get-EA-charging-session-started might make sense for those for whom it is reasonably inconvenient to fast-charge prior to parking and cold soaking their car and want to let it pre-condition while enjoying a nice breakfast in the morning, hoping that:
a) EA doesn't take a lot more that Tavg-to-get-EA-charging-session-started or it will have cooled to below optimal charging temperature
b) You don't get detained before departing to charge so it will have cooled to below optimal charging temperature
or
b) EA doesn't take a lot less than Tavg-to-get-EA-charging-session-started or it won't have warmed up sufficiently for optimal charging
. . . see, I told you this wasn't getting silly /s