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I don't understand. I had invested in BTC some years ago, got out again with a slight profit. At some point it changed ticker to GBTC.

View attachment 969289
I believe GBTC is a trust and not an ETF:

ETFs are open-ended and often passively managed, while investment trusts are closed-ended and actively managed. The decision to invest in an ETF or investment trust will depend on an investor's individual investment goals and risk tolerance.
 
A recent Planet Money podcast recently reported that HALF of North Korea's budget for nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles (which they've been expanding greatly) now comes from stolen crypto! They were reporting on the recent theft of 600 million dollars worth of crypto (BTC, I think, but I'm not sure on that) of which roughly 10% was recovered by American authorities. North Korea is into crypto theft in a big way and it's been a tremendous boost to their economy and their weapons development programs. They're very sophisticated in their methods, and within minutes of the theft they had moved the coins around through so many wallets and "mixers" that the likelihood of recovering more of it than that 10% is unlikely.

So there's one more "use" for crypto: Funding rogue governments' weapons development.
 
Kim Jong Un is loving that hashrate. It’s making his efforts easier by making both mining and stealing by small players much more difficult and relieving everyone of the notion that crypto is immune from manipulation by nation/states.
 
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"It’s almost as if mainstream media has been searching for another platform from which to justify its judgmental condescension."
"It’s a clever idea, if your aim is to reverse the growing global acceptance that Bitcoin mining can be a positive environmental force.
Climate fear mongering has been a tool-of-the-trade for some time in the clicks industry, and it is timely given the ongoing COP28 summit. Combine some existential doom with a scary new financial system that no-one can seemingly control, and the mainstream press will of course lap it up."
"Now, I’m not suggesting that de Vries is part of a coordinated effort to discredit the crypto ecosystem, at a time when official recognition of its environmental potential was starting to consolidate and legacy finance was getting ready to embrace the opportunity to service a greater range of Bitcoin products. No, I wouldn’t do that, I’m not a conspiracy theorist.
But you must admit the timing is convenient, and it is remarkable how quickly mainstream media picked up a comment in an obscure scientific journal that I am sure is not part of the journalists’ regular morning reads. Oh, and did I mention that Alex de Vries works for the Dutch central bank?"

IT JUST AIN'T SO

"Now, on to the main things that de Vries gets wrong."

"First, de Vries attempts to calculate the water consumption per transaction. This shows either a misunderstanding of how Bitcoin works or a willful misdirect, and since de Vries has been researching Bitcoin energy use for at least five years (that I’m aware of), I’m guessing it’s the latter.
Bitcoin miners in aggregate pay for electricity to process blocks of transactions, and the number of blocks is predictable (one every 10 minutes or so). The calculable metric is consumption (of electricity or water) per block. Each block can contain one or thousands of transactions, depending on demand and size (in terms of memory consumption). Currently, there are around 3-4,000 transactions per block, but earlier this year, the number was more like 1,000.
And each transaction can contain one or millions of payments, which de Vries neglects to explain."

"Second, de Vries sums together indirect water use via electricity consumption, and direct water use via rig cooling methods, asking us to believe that adding them together produces a useful figure. Water used on-site can be saved for other uses should the Bitcoin miners switch off. Water used by power generators, not necessarily. These are two very different types of water use, which cannot be lumped into one convenient yet irrelevant measure."
"Furthermore, the direct use is not necessarily a water “cost,” as much of the water in cooling methods is re-used. And the indirect consumption (by the electricity source) is also not technically a “cost” since much of the water used by thermal power plants is returned to its source after cooling. The water used by hydroelectric generation would not be significantly impacted should Bitcoin miners switch off."

"Third, the math is based on very tenuous assumptions. The method de Vries uses is to estimate Bitcoin mining’s energy consumption (based on data from the Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index), apply an approximate geographical distribution, factor in the average energy mix by region and then extrapolate the water used by each type of energy."

"Apart from the margin of error in each of those factors, this method assumes that all miners are representative of the grid mix in their jurisdictions. This is not so – miners tend to concentrate around lower-cost sources since energy is their main continuing expense, which skews the relevant mix. What’s more, miners increasingly co-locate with energy producers to reduce waste and take advantage of stranded power."
"And the representative geographical mix was based on out-of-date information. Kazakhstan, for example, is given as one of the top-three global mining jurisdictions. That may have been the case in 2021, but today, there are very few Bitcoin miners in Kazakhstan, as the industry was hit by repeated internet outages, energy shortages and regulatory barriers."
"And yet, we are told, in a scientific journal, that each Bitcoin transaction consumes enough water to fill a small swimming pool. This is supposed to shock us because obviously (!?) a swimming pool is more useful, and the implication is that more Bitcoin transactions means that fewer people would be able to enjoy aquatic recreation."

WHO ARE THE REAL CULPRITS?

"Just when I think my disappointment with mainstream media has reached its peak, I find that there are always new heights to scale. The media handling of de Vries’ comment has been egregious.
Almost all the publications that picked up this article repeated the claims verbatim, without questioning the source of the data or the author’s track record (de Vries has a history of making predictions which end up being off by eye-watering orders of magnitude).
Some media sources blatantly misstated fact – the BBC, for instance, conflated “payment” with “transaction” in their headline. Futurism led with “The Average Bitcoin Transaction Wastes a Full Swimming Pool of Water, Scientists Say” – note the use of the words “waste” and “scientists.” The Independent chose the unhelpfully vague “Bitcoin consumes as much water as all the baths in Britain, study claims.” Pretty much all reporting confused “study” with “comment” – the former tends to be peer reviewed, the latter hardly ever. This is either lazy or intentionally misleading."



The WSJ did the same thing back when they ran other stories like, "Bitcoin uses more energy than (pick a country)".
And that was easily disproven at the time, lacked any real data to back it up, and was just another example of WSJ running clickbait articles that benefit their financial interests.

There's a saying in the Bitcoin community: Don't Trust, Verify
That is more true today than ever before.
 
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How many people need to think bitcoin has value before it has value?


You appear to have skipped over 2 crucial words in my post- I said it lacked intrinsic or practical value.

There's no intrinsic value- there's no future cashflows of a company like if you owned a stock or your own business. Owning BTC is like owning stock in an imaginary company. It produces nothing of value on its own, and does not represent ownership of anything that produces value on its own. You can only profit if you find a bigger fool to sell it to.

It has no practical value because it's imaginary (I can't eat it, I can't build a house with it, I can't even make jewelry and electronics out of it like you could with gold- and I'm NOT one of those "gold is the only real asset" dudes but it can at least be USED for something practical).... and barring use in crime tends to be accepted nearly no where and the places it is it's usually functionally worse than the thing it claims it wants to replace- fraud protection is worse, transaction fees are much higher, etc... (and most of the few places that DO take it only do so on the premise of converting it back to actual real money)

It obviously has SPECULATIVE value- as, famously, did Tulips. But at least when the price of those crashed they were still pretty to look at for a while.
 
Guess Bard/Gemini could answer my question:
ItemValue
Initial Bitcoin price (Feb 1, 2021)$34,523.39
Initial Bitcoin holdings43,000
Purchase amount$1,488,994,577.00
Selling price$44,000.00
Selling amount$1,892,000,000.00
Profit$407,494,230.00
 
Course the way accounting works on this if they'd held all that BTC through the huge dips they'd have had to report losses quarterly the whole way down (but they don't get to report gains until sold- and if the argument is BTC always goes up long term why would you ever sell?)
 
There's no intrinsic value- there's no future cashflows of a company like if you owned a stock or your own business. Owning BTC is like owning stock in an imaginary company. It produces nothing of value on its own, and does not represent ownership of anything that produces value on its own. You can only profit if you find a bigger fool to sell it to.

It has no practical value because it's imaginary (I can't eat it, I can't build a house with it, I can't even make jewelry and electronics out of it like you could with gold- and I'm NOT one of those "gold is the only real asset" dudes but it can at least be USED for something practical).... and barring use in crime tends to be accepted nearly no where and the places it is it's usually functionally worse than the thing it claims it wants to replace- fraud protection is worse, transaction fees are much higher, etc... (and most of the few places that DO take it only do so on the premise of converting it back to actual real money)

It obviously has SPECULATIVE value- as, famously, did Tulips. But at least when the price of those crashed they were still pretty to look at for a while.
Wow, you must be fun at parties. :rolleyes:

Based on your definitions of intrinsic and practical values, you just described fiat money to a T.
The fiat dollar bills in your wallet:
-Produce nothing of value on their own, nor represent ownership of anything that produces value on it's own. They are simply bank IOU's, that they can deny whenever they want, without your permission.
-Can't profit from fiat directly unless given to a central banking authority for interest, which loses value against inflation anyway, so still losing value long-term.

- Your fiat dollars are imaginary too. They aren't backed by anything (Gov? LOL), can't eat it. I guess the paper it's printed on can be used in practical ways.
But fiat can be counterfeited. The Federal Reserve debases your fiat every time they QE print/create more out of thin air.
- If gold were a dull gray color, it wouldn't be nearly as valued in any way. But I guess even lead has it's uses.
- Let's just stop with the "only a few places use it". Entire countries are using it as legal tender. So just because you don't see it being used, because in the US it's still mostly a curiosity to the majority of the public, and the USD is king, doesn't mean it's not used in a real, legal way globally. (FYI, the "used only illegally" is old FUD, long been disproven. USD is by far the preferred criminal currency)

- Bitcoin has now surpassed the transaction settlement value of Visa. Not the shear number of transactions, but the volume $ amount.

1701959745155.png

So go ahead and keep trying to say Bitcoin is useless, and can never be used at scale. It's just not true anymore.
The Lightning Network is the first step in bringing this innovation to the masses. Daily transactions can now be processed quickly off the blockchain.
Very similar to how ACH works. Your Starbucks purchase doesn't clear your bank account instantly. The bank authorizes a hold on your funds while the actual transaction can take a week to actually be finalized. It's a layer 2 built over the layer 1 system.
The Lightning Network is a layer 2 built over the layer 1 Bitcoin network so that funds can be moved quickly without having to wait for a transaction to "finalize". And unlike the dying dinosaur fiat system, the Lighting and Bitcoin networks are growing, and improving every year.

Even governments know their fiat systems are dying. Why do you think so many are trying to introduce CBDC's!
All currencies are going digital whether you want to believe it or not. The Federal Reserve's recent launch of their FEDNOW system is the first step toward replacing their Fedwire system with a digital equivalent that is CBDC-ready.
It's all about control. Gov's can't control/manipulate Bitcoin, and that scares them to death. So to hold on to their power/control, they're going to create their own inferior version of a superior technology.

Think of it this way:
What if you owned physical real gold, and the government was creating tons of pyrite and telling you it's better than your gold.
Would you take their pyrite over real gold?
That's what's happening.

But folks who have spent their entire life profiting off of the existing fiat system are obviously going to be the ones who fight the hardest to hang on to that dying system. They'll go down with the fiat ship, when there are plenty of Bitcoin lifeboats available.
Simply because they can't accept the reality that the world is changing around them, but they want their little world to remain unchanged, at the expense of being left behind.


For those out there who've read this far, and actually want to learn more about what is money, why the current fiat system doesn't work for you, and why technology is a big part of it, check out this book:
(Not a paid endorsement)
 
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Wow, you must be fun at parties. :rolleyes:

Based on your definitions of intrinsic and practical values, you just described fiat money to a T.
The fiat dollar bills in your wallet:
-Produce nothing of value on their own, nor represent ownership of anything that produces value on it's own. They are simply bank IOU's, that they can deny whenever they want, without your permission.
-Can't profit from fiat directly unless given to a central banking authority for interest, which loses value against inflation anyway, so still losing value long-term.

I never claimed Fiat had intrinsic value- so you appear to be strawmanning here.

It has PRACTICAL value though because it's commonly accepted, and easily used, as liquid currency. BTC not so much.


- Let's just stop with the "only a few places use it". Entire countries are using it as legal tender.


That is... a poor argument?

The only countries using it are a couple of 3rd world ones that can't sustain a functioning economy on their own.

It's near useless in any modern nation compared to actual money is the point.



So just because you don't see it being used, because in the US it's still mostly a curiosity to the majority of the public, and the USD is king, doesn't mean it's not used in a real, legal way globally.


Again, it's not legal tender, or terribly useful in 193 out of 195 countries. The 2 it is are the result of repeated failed economies. Hilariously bad argument here.



(FYI, the "used only illegally" is old FUD, long been disproven.

Except, it hasn't.


2023 Crypto Crime Trends: Illicit Cryptocurrency Volumes Reach All-Time Highs Amid Surge in Sanctions Designations and Hacking


- Bitcoin has now surpassed the transaction settlement value of Visa. Not the shear number of transactions, but the volume $ amount.

....how's that relevant? The fact there was huge $ traded in Tulips didn't change the fact they had an inherent value vastly below the transaction prices.

Here's a story explaining why this "milestone" doesn't mean what you think it means:

Note especially the paragraph explaining how misleading a measure this is for a network like BTC and thus "while the sheer volume of transactions is impressive, it is not necessarily indicative of widespread retail use or adoption."

(they also mention at the end significant problems in one of the 2 countries who ARE using it as a currency BTW)


So go ahead and keep trying to say Bitcoin is useless, and can never be used at scale. It's just not true anymore.

And yet- it still is true. Except for crime and avoiding international sanctions, it's super useful there. Also for speculation via Greater Fool theory of investment. And I guess as something a failing government can toss out to make headlines.

But to replace actual money? It keeps being functionally worse in virtually every sense. Slower, more expensive, more complex, zero fraud protection, vastly inferior value stability, etc.
 
Course the way accounting works on this if they'd held all that BTC through the huge dips they'd have had to report losses quarterly the whole way down (but they don't get to report gains until sold- and if the argument is BTC always goes up long term why would you ever sell?)
Indeed, quarterly they were taking impairments (marked to market) if that is what you mean. I’m not sure if the impairments are accounted for in the quarter, or carried forward to a point in the future where there would be offsetting gains.
 
Indeed, quarterly they were taking impairments (marked to market) if that is what you mean. I’m not sure if the impairments are accounted for in the quarter, or carried forward to a point in the future where there would be offsetting gains.


Stolen from a coinbase story-

bitcoin is treated as an indefinite-lived intangible asset. That means the companies that hold bitcoin on their balance sheets need to mark down its balance sheet value if bitcoin’s price decreases. This is sensible and gives an accurate representation of the financial reality that the asset it holds is now worth less.

Unfortunately, because bitcoin is treated as an indefinite-lived intangible asset, the company is not allowed to increase the value of the bitcoin to accurately represent the financial reality that the asset it holds is now worth more.

Mark-to-market assets, in contrast, allow companies to adjust the value of an asset to reflect its value as determined by current market conditions. If bitcoin were allowed to be treated as a mark-to-market asset, companies could do this.

The rule that requires bitcoin to be treated as an indefinite-lived intangible asset is determined by the Financial Accounting Standards Board (FASB) in the U.S.


So as I said- they had to show losses quarterly (if there were any from declining market value) while still holding, but could never show gains (while holding-only when selling- if any).