BMW folks comments on Tesla

[dannycamps]

Assuming the new approach works better than Parking Sensors, will older models also get the same implementation technology wise since it's all camera based?

FSD isn't a priority for me, nor that I will buy it or pay for it on any future Tesla I get. I prefer spirited driving, though I never floor any of my vehicles ever, but I love driving and I even sometimes drive only for the sake of driving mentally; so no way I would need FSD or enjoy it. Drive Assist and lane centering works perfect for me, which I also believe Tesla basic pilot system is good at. I tested FSD on a Model X rental, just for the fun of it. I never use Drive Assist on any of my current vehicles either, except lane centering on highway (just in case).

Speaking about FSD, I asked the Non-Tesla dealer who has that 2021 Model S am considering to let me know what kind of AutoPilot system level does it have, and they have no clue! Is their a set of steps I can ask them to follow to check what AutoPilot level does it have? They sent me a photo of the setting menu which means nothing to me.

Yes - once the vision-based system reaches parity, it will be expanded to cars that currently have USS in place. From recent rumblings on Twitter, it looks like it's getting closer (the latest FSD beta build is reintroducing parking assist for cars without USS).

To verify what is on the car, you can go to the settings screen -> Software & Updates (last option). This will tell you what version of software is on the car as well as the Autopilot package (basic autopilot, enhanced autopilot, FSD). You can also click on "Additional Information" for some more details.

 

[CTruck_BMW]

That’s the beauty of having these types of options. Want something that’s comfy to sit in? Get the S580. Want something of similar size that’s also crazy fast? Get the Plaid.

The term “luxury” is dependent on what the individual values most.

Agreed. Not sure about the “similar size” part of it. S-

Yes - once the vision-based system reaches parity, it will be expanded to cars that currently have USS in place. From recent rumblings on Twitter, it looks like it's getting closer (the latest FSD beta build is reintroducing parking assist for cars without USS).

To verify what is on the car, you can go to the settings screen -> Software & Updates (last option). This will tell you what version of software is on the car as well as the Autopilot package (basic autopilot, enhanced autopilot, FSD). You can also click on "Additional Information" for some more details.

this window??

 

[OxBrew]

Assuming the new approach works better than Parking Sensors, will older models also get the same implementation technology wise since it's all camera based?

FSD isn't a priority for me, nor that I will buy it or pay for it on any future Tesla I get. I prefer spirited driving, though I never floor any of my vehicles ever, but I love driving and I even sometimes drive only for the sake of driving mentally; so no way I would need FSD or enjoy it. Drive Assist and lane centering works perfect for me, which I also believe Tesla basic pilot system is good at. I tested FSD on a Model X rental, just for the fun of it. I never use Drive Assist on any of my current vehicles either, except lane centering on highway (just in case).

Speaking about FSD, I asked the Non-Tesla dealer who has that 2021 Model S am considering to let me know what kind of AutoPilot system level does it have, and they have no clue! Is their a set of steps I can ask them to follow to check what AutoPilot level does it have? They sent me a photo of the setting menu which means nothing to me.

You should assume it has only standard AP, and you would have to pay extra for EAP of FSD.

Dealers often can't guarantee any advanced AP will transfer through the change of ownership. Tesla seems to usually remove them when a car is sold, and the new owner has to buy them again.

That's image seems to show only Standard AP (basically lane keeping and traffic aware cruise control). Will not change lanes for you, have to cancel lane keeping and re engage in the new lane.

 

[dannycamps]

this window??

Correct - the car has basic Autopilot which includes automated lane centering, steering within the lane, and traffic aware cruise control. Both EAP and FSD are available as upgrade options (one time payment or monthly subscription).

Also shown is standard connectivity. Premium connectivity ($9.99/month) will get you satellite maps, live traffic routing, online location searches, streaming audio options, and streaming media. That is worth it but you can use the personal hotspot feature of your phone if you wanted to.

 

[bmah]

Moderator note: Moved 8 posts to snippiness, including personal attacks and replies to same. Remember, it's OK to disagree on things, but you gotta be at least civil to each other.

Bruce.

 

[drtimhill]

Probably nobody cares here, but wanted to hear what you all think about the conversation below in one of the BMW forums. I am at the border of switching to Tesla but seems like most folks recommends against the idea, and then i came across that topic. Let's be honest, why opinions around Tesla are always skewed towards the extreme negative except for those who currently own one?

Tesla Is on Its Way to Being America's Luxury King Again... wait what??

Tesla Is on Its Way to Being America's Luxury King Again... wait what??

g07.bimmerpost.com

Ex-BMW guy here (from some years back), and frankly my experience of modern BMWs is they are more bling than luxury. I see no evidence of a coherent design pattern for the interiors (random buttons and silly styling cues abound), bling lighting everywhere, and pretend engine noises piped in through the audio system. Overall, I get the impression the target audience for BMW these days is drug dealers.

 

[Mullermn]

Yeah X3 does not have BMW hands free highway drive assist. It due for a refresh now so that’s why, and it's one of the last ones to get the refresh being a low tier vehicle.

How likely do you think it is that any vehicle sold pre-refresh will get the updated software when it releases? Either by OTA or dealer visit?

 

[Tiger]

The discussion of highway trips. Our highway drive for the past 12 years have always been S-class vehicles with rear seat goodies. 3rd photo is not a photo I personally took, but a replica of my W223 S580 which is a replacement of my W222 S560. We have a 2020 X7 M50i too (bought it pre-owned, 46K miles for less than 66K USD). My only point is, I don't see how my wife and I can let go a car like this that we enjoy driving vs relaxing in the back on 50-50% basis during our monthly 8hrs trip. Others probably have never experienced that luxury and it's benefits, but I did, hence was just trying to share my part of the story as to why Tesla is a no-good highway carrier at that price range (well, Telsa plaid is still slightly cheaper that a fully loaded W222/w223 but close enough) if we can get or keep or S-class.

If I'd want to sit on the backseat I'd take a taxi or limo service Our kids wouldn't appreciate those backseats, they have boosters anyways and their idea of a nice interior is a thin spread of peanut butter all over /s

 

[CTruck_BMW]

Moderator note: Moved 8 posts to snippiness, including personal attacks and replies to same. Remember, it's OK to disagree on things, but you gotta be at least civil to each other.

Bruce.

Much appreciated

 

[CTruck_BMW]

How likely do you think it is that any vehicle sold pre-refresh will get the updated software when it releases? Either by OTA or dealer visit?

Every 3-months at minimum. My former 2018 up until 2022 when I sold it was getting OTA of with many of them in 2022 were major improvements. Current owner told me a few weeks ago he is still receiving OTA to date.

 

[CTruck_BMW]

If I'd want to sit on the backseat I'd take a taxi or limo service Our kids wouldn't appreciate those backseats, they have boosters anyways and their idea of a nice interior is a thin spread of peanut butter all over /s

Yh that depends on the family and their lifestyle. Plus my wife and I do share the rear seat for a good portion of our monthly 8 hrs trip. Comes handy and the rear hot massage seat with recliner watching your favorite football game is something else.
Not to mention that the front seats, specially the passenger seat, still get same exact "refinement".

 

[Mullermn]

Every 3-months at minimum. My former 2018 up until 2022 when I sold it was getting OTA of with many of them in 2022 were major improvements. Current owner told me a few weeks ago he is still receiving OTA to date.

Do you anticipate major functionality upgrades being delivered the same way?

I'm not trying to lay a trap but I am fishing to make a point, which is that Tesla have so far been pretty good about deploying new functionality to all existing cars that are physically capable of having it, and that would be a good illustration of one of the good things about Tesla and the new era of cars that would offset the luxurious side of the traditional marques for me.

Given that BMW are the ones who invented subscription fees for your heated seats it feels unlikely that they're going to roll out significant new features to the existing fleet when they're released?

 

[CTruck_BMW]

Correct - the car has basic Autopilot which includes automated lane centering, steering within the lane, and traffic aware cruise control. Both EAP and FSD are available as upgrade options (one time payment or monthly subscription).

Also shown is standard connectivity. Premium connectivity ($9.99/month) will get you satellite maps, live traffic routing, online location searches, streaming audio options, and streaming media. That is worth it but you can use the personal hotspot feature of your phone if you wanted to.

Hmmm, that sucks. I searched online and have some understanding about the potential cost of EAP and FSD, but can you confirm current (most recent) monthly subscription rates? I don't use the feature much (not at all in-town) but I'd appreciate the lane change assist and better lane centering if we decide to ever take it to highways on an as-needed basis for long trips; and I've had it on all my vehicles thus far so I might at least want the mid-level autopilot (EAP). Nearest Tesla service center is 4 hours away from me, so at least for some service appointment, we might need to spend a weekend and drive 4-hrs to get it fixed and have fun at the same time. Is that how service works (please don't tell me they don't offer loaners or that they don't bring it back in 1-2 days for most issues). I heard there is also an option to send a certified technician home?

 

[CTruck_BMW]

Do you anticipate major functionality upgrades being delivered the same way?

I'm not trying to lay a trap but I am fishing to make a point, which is that Tesla have so far been pretty good about deploying new functionality to all existing cars that are physically capable of having it, and that would be a good illustration of one of the good things about Tesla and the new era of cars that would offset the luxurious side of the traditional marques for me.

Given that BMW are the ones who invented subscription fees for your heated seats it feels unlikely that they're going to roll out significant new features to the existing fleet when they're released?

There is no subscription for heated seats (that's only some BS that some online forums created). It might exist in some countries, but here in the US, there is not a single vehicle offered ever for such subscription. And, by law, they are not even allowed to take a way a feature and convert it to monthly subscription after the vehicle sale. To date, there is ZERO subscription based services offered on any new BMW vehicle. Not to my knowledge for Mercedes either. In fact BMW has the edge because their system costs nothing monthly for the new hands-free highway drive assist. Plus, if you don't want it, you can pay less for the car and not get the hardware from day 1!.. Even the BMW App (connected services over 4G-5G network) is free for the first 5 years of the vehicle lifetime. The new Full Hands-Free Highway Drive Assist is also free... Again, I really think many Tesla owners are very well uninformed about how far other brands have come just in the past 12 months or so or even years.
I am talking here from personal experience. I can confirm that major updates have been pushed OTA... just last year, my former 2019 vehicle received an update that also included huge improvements for lane centering and lane change assist, Rear light animation (cosmetic). etc. Recently, app parking control (without driver in the seat). 2 years old EV and PHEV vehicles just this year received changes to improve the range of these electric vehicles. I consider all that as major functionality upgrades which also included 2019 vehicles in 2023 (after warranty has expired on the 4-years+ old vehicle). Thought my PHEV has 8-years warranty on the EV/PHEV related components + 2 years of CPO extension so it got all that while still covered, but other non-PHEV also received the same.
No issues with laying out a trap, after-all it is my goal to understand the differences, but I am not interested in OTA anyway as much as am interested in what the car offers me overall (am okay with zero OTA if I like the vehicle on day one... and I think I like the Model S or Model Y as is for a daily school/kids/parks/family/shopping in-town drive only, but not on highways where it lacks many must have refinements for our personal baseline). My Mercedes though does not offer that much of OTA (but BMW does), however, I have been told that the new MBUX system on the 2023 S580 offered zero layer regular OTA for free, but I didn't receive my car yet so i have not tried that. I can only talk to BMW system being exceptional in OTA. The new iDrive-8 is also better and recently they also promised to get ID8 user updated to the new ID system without hardware swap. Tesla is the same, I heard in many occasions that the computer/hardware would need to be switched in some instanced to take advantage of all new features. There is not a single hardware that can survive years and years of software development on the same hardware basis and that is now equally shared between Tesla and BMW.

 

[CTruck_BMW]

If I'd want to sit on the backseat I'd take a taxi or limo service Our kids wouldn't appreciate those backseats, they have boosters anyways and their idea of a nice interior is a thin spread of peanut butter all over /s

Sorry for the multiple responses, time expired before I was able to come back to edit and complete my response:
Yeah that depends on the family and their lifestyle. Plus my wife and I do share the rear seat for a good portion of our monthly 8 hrs trip. Comes handy and the rear hot massage seat with recliner watching your favorite football game is something else.
Not to mention that the front seats, specially the passenger seat, still get same exact "refinement".
The other important note about screens, watching movies on a long drive, etc, you could still set in the passenger front seat, get a true hot massage, recline, and watch a movie using the Split-Screen technology in MBenz screens where in the Driver sees the map, while passenger sees a movie at exceptional resolution in new Mbenz vehicle. I don't think any Tesla offers movies or whatever for the passenger seat plus all the referment around during a long trip across the country. If u like to go against the law, a 40 USD cable or module would allow you to code it so the driver can watch the movie too from his seating position but I won't recommend it. The split view feature is the perfect solution for two passengers seeing two different things full screen yet with outstanding resolution. Not trying to argue, but also sharing what you might not know about the refinement I see and reason I keep believing Tesla is an in-town daily for my intended application but doesn't possess even basic 101 requirements for highway long trips at least based on my baseline.

I appreciate everyone's feedback. Very useful conversation despite the different views on a few aspects. I have solid info on my intended use for now. Always good to hear different opinions. My test drive is scheduled for Wednesday later afternoon. I'll report back later next weekend when I get time to do further research on the subject, my week is about to start. Hope you all have a great productive week.

 

[jabloomf1230]

BMW Doesn't Want You To Use The iDrive Knob Anymore - The Autopian

After 20 years of iDrive knob twiddling, BMW is now focusing on touchscreens first. The end of an era feels nigh.

www.theautopian.com

 

[CTruck_BMW]

BMW Doesn't Want You To Use The iDrive Knob Anymore - The Autopian

After 20 years of iDrive knob twiddling, BMW is now focusing on touchscreens first. The end of an era feels nigh.

www.theautopian.com

Yes, they are conservatively transitioning to touch-screen only. Most iDrive 8 users "claim" they never used the knob anymore with iDrive 8 (it's a redundant knob anyway). I would rather keep it as I personally still prefer to rest my hand on the central console leather and fingers on the knob that extending my arms to touch the screen. But, it's all about getting used to it if I really want to let go the knob.

In my Mbenz, I think it has the best "driver controllability" offering in the industry (this was also offered since 2018 on some Mbenz vehicles). A small touch pad on the steering wheel itself that serves like the phone screen or laptop touch pad. I can keep my hands on the steering wheel, with my thump I can control anything on both screens (one touch area for right screen and another for left on the left side of the steering wheel). If I feel that I want to touch the screen, I can do that too. At least they are still willing to offer redundant ways of controlling the vehicle. Still not a fan of touching the screen for everything I need. I think right now Mbenz has the best balance between offering just a few buttons for must have features, while also offering redundant useful method to control the screen right from the steering wheel itself.

 

[E90alex]

Do you anticipate major functionality upgrades being delivered the same way?

I'm not trying to lay a trap but I am fishing to make a point, which is that Tesla have so far been pretty good about deploying new functionality to all existing cars that are physically capable of having it, and that would be a good illustration of one of the good things about Tesla and the new era of cars that would offset the luxurious side of the traditional marques for me.

Given that BMW are the ones who invented subscription fees for your heated seats it feels unlikely that they're going to roll out significant new features to the existing fleet when they're released?

Tesla did pioneer OTA updates which we are all thankful for, but BMW and Ford for example have been doing OTA updates pretty well for their latest cars. Things have changed a lot with other automakers since even just a couple years ago.

Tesla was also the first to implement customer self initiated SWaP (software as product) unlocks where the hardware exists but you just have to pay for it to be software unlocked. EAP/FSD, acceleration boost, rear heated seats on some Model 3, even battery range upgrades on some older Model S and Model 3 SR. So don’t blame BMW for feature subscriptions/upgrades when the heated seat subscription does not exist outside of Korea, and even there you can pay for a one time permanent unlock just like with Tesla instead of a subscription.

 

[Mullermn]

There is no subscription for heated seats (that's only some BS that some online forums created). It might exist in some countries, but here in the US, there is not a single vehicle offered ever for such subscription. And, by law, they are not even allowed to take a way a feature and convert it to monthly subscription after the vehicle sale. To date, there is ZERO subscription based services offered on any new BMW vehicle.

So don’t blame BMW for feature subscriptions/upgrades when the heated seat subscription does not exist outside of Korea, and even there you can pay for a one time permanent unlock just like with Tesla instead of a subscription.

It definitely is real, and not just in Korea. https://www.bmw.co.uk/en/shop/ls/dp/Seat_Heating_SFA_gb

You obviously have a point about the acceleration boost etc. I dunno why the seats seems different, I suppose it's just because they're a pretty mundane feature. Anyway, fair point, the difference is in the eye of the beholder so the argument that BMW and Tesla are on the same footing with these subscription services is valid.

 

[E90alex]

It definitely is real, and not just in Korea. https://www.bmw.co.uk/en/shop/ls/dp/Seat_Heating_SFA_gb

You obviously have a point about the acceleration boost etc. I dunno why the seats seems different, I suppose it's just because they're a pretty mundane feature. Anyway, fair point, the difference is in the eye of the beholder so the argument that BMW and Tesla are on the same footing with these subscription services is valid.

Regardless, you can still pay for a permanent activation or just check the option box with the initial car purchase. An ongoing subscription is not mandatory. People act like BMW is forcing everyone to pay twice for heated seats.