Buyer Beware: AP2 Extremely Dangerous

[NerdUno]

AP2 was released very early due to public demand...

A more accurate recounting of the 2016 fall events might be... Tesla released AP2 very early due to public outcry from buyers who were misled both by Tesla salespeople and by Tesla official pronouncements indicating that AP2 would be available in December, 2016 and would be as good or better than AP1. I actually cancelled a P90D Ludicrous AP1 vehicle one day after ordering it based upon those representations, and Tesla was kind enough to pocket the deposit and not credit it toward our purchase of an AP2 vehicle the following day.

 

[JeffK]

If you continue to say something is expected to be ready by December while it is already January there are no excuses. That's way past 'we didn't promise anything and we honestly assumed we would be ready by then'. You know you are wrong but you keep saying it? That's a lie in my book.

Changing the website is another story. I'm not sure how it works at Tesla, but in the corporate world any change to a public facing website might need multiple approvals and documentation. This might take anywhere from several days to several months at some businesses.

In January, week 3 the wording changed to "Enhanced Autopilot software started rolling out via an over-the-air update beginning in December 2016, and features will continue to be introduced as validation is completed, subject to regulatory approval"

Which is a true statement, it starting rolling out. This doesn't mean all cars had it, nor does it mean its features are complete. The plan was to keep introducing features every two months.

Now, anyone who heard the autopilot 2.0 announcement call in the middle of October would know that Elon said 2-3 months which means maybe December, maybe January.

I don't know about rich people who purchase stuff on a website without research, but I'd really recommend that if someone is going to make a purchase, any purchase, that's several thousand dollars that they at least do a little legwork and due diligence.

 

[disagree]

Q: Since Tesla is public, is there any way for us to find out if they claimed $5k for each EAP-optioned car delivered in 2016 as Q4 profit for 2016?

Maybe I'm missing some of the motivation to bathe Tesla in unsullied virtue, since I appear to be one of the few people here without Tesla stock (doh!), but it's 1/4 of February in the books and we have a very iffy product. In 5 weeks, we have received a teensy speed limit increase and some perhaps placebo feelings that "it is a little better". Given EAP's current state, I don't understand why people have a hard time understanding that other people feel mislead. It smells of being rushed out, the reports of unsafe behavior are not insignificant, several cheap-car features are absent, and the roadmap to any state of "completion" is foggier than a San Francisco morning.

Expect is rather different from intend is rather different from hope. I don't know what Tesla was thinking internally, but "expect" and "completed validation" and "rolled out to your car... in December 2016" is what they told us. And if "rich people need to read the internet" is going to be your justification for Tesla posting perhaps duplicitous or false info, then I think you've already lost the argument.

Again, I don't know if Tesla is/was being shady here, but it is at the very least not unreasonable to want to know what is really going on/went on. It's been about 4 months since they announced the hardware and demoed a FSD car.

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

Q: Since Tesla is public, is there any way for us to find out if they claimed $5k for each EAP-optioned car delivered in 2016 as Q4 profit for 2016?

Maybe I'm missing some of the motivation to bathe Tesla in unsullied virtue, since I appear to be one of the few people here without Tesla stock (doh!), but it's 1/4 of February in the books and we have a very iffy product. In 5 weeks, we have received a teensy speed limit increase and some perhaps placebo feelings that "it is a little better". Given EAP's current state, I don't understand why people have a hard time understanding that other people feel mislead. It smells of being rushed out, the reports of unsafe behavior are not insignificant, several cheap-car features are absent, and the roadmap to any state of "completion" is foggier than a San Francisco morning.

Expect is rather different from intend is rather different from hope. I don't know what Tesla was thinking internally, but "expect" and "completed validation" and "rolled out to your car... in December 2016" is what they told us. And if "rich people need to read the internet" is going to be your justification for Tesla posting perhaps duplicitous or false info, then I think you've already lost the argument.

Again, I don't know if Tesla is/was being shady here, but it is at the very least not unreasonable to want to know what is really going on/went on. It's been about 4 months since they announced the hardware and demoed a FSD car.

Contact Tesla and call it like you see it. Let them know how upset you are and that you think they lied to you. Maybe they will try to make things right somehow.

 

[schonelucht]

Q: Since Tesla is public, is there any way for us to find out if they claimed $5k for each EAP-optioned car delivered in 2016 as Q4 profit for 2016?

They will report Q4 results Feb 22, we will know then. Based on previous experience they will not or only partially recognize the revenue. Claiming it all would be wrong since they still a very significant deliverable by the end of quarter.

 

[JeffK]

They will report Q4 results Feb 22, we will know then. Based on previous experience they will not or only partially recognize the revenue. Claiming it all would be wrong since they still a very significant deliverable by the end of quarter.

As far as I know, neither EAP or FSD are "deposits". It's a purchase and therefore should be counted in the revenue numbers.

 

[disagree]

Let them know how upset you are and that you think they lied to you. .

I neither said that I was upset or that I think Tesla lied.

I was trying to state clearly why other people might understandably feel that way, and further that maybe some people here were not being, let's say, charitable enough to them.

And -- ultimately -- I prefer trying to understand other people's concerns and experiences over yelling them down.

Admittedly I am pretty curious about what is going on with EAP. I'm upset that one of my kids still refuses to eat vegetables.

 

[182RG]

As far as I know, neither EAP or FSD are "deposits". It's a purchase and therefore should be counted in the revenue numbers.

Determining this is more complex than most realize. Determining whether the feature is incidental to the product or not is in question, and an understanding of GAAP and IFRS and understanding the guidance from FASB and others is required. We'll see soon enough.

 

[disagree]

Determining this is more complex than most realize. Determining whether the feature is incidental to the product or not is in question, and an understanding of GAAP and IFRS and understanding the guidance from FASB and others is required. We'll see soon enough.

You sound like my wife.

 

[182RG]

Maybe I'm missing some of the motivation to bathe Tesla in unsullied virtue, since I appear to be one of the few people here without Tesla stock (doh!), but it's 1/4 of February in the books and we have a very iffy product. In 5 weeks, we have received a teensy speed limit increase and some perhaps placebo feelings that "it is a little better". Given EAP's current state, I don't understand why people have a hard time understanding that other people feel mislead. It smells of being rushed out, the reports of unsafe behavior are not insignificant, several cheap-car features are absent, and the roadmap to any state of "completion" is foggier than a San Francisco morning.

Expect is rather different from intend is rather different from hope. I don't know what Tesla was thinking internally, but "expect" and "completed validation" and "rolled out to your car... in December 2016" is what they told us. And if "rich people need to read the internet" is going to be your justification for Tesla posting perhaps duplicitous or false info, then I think you've already lost the argument.

Again, I don't know if Tesla is/was being shady here, but it is at the very least not unreasonable to want to know what is really going on/went on. It's been about 4 months since they announced the hardware and demoed a FSD car.

^ Slow Clap ^ Very well said. I'll step over your line and say that I think Tesla is being shady. Lie is a really, really strong word. I prefer to use "deliberately misleading" here, with this particular situation. They have been. They were caught empty when the MobilEye relationship dissolved quickly. That's my hypothesis over they fired Tesla, and not the other way around.

I think the EAP uproar will eventually pass, although I'd guess there are many, many months still to go to get AP 1 parity. The caca will hit the fan with FSD, even though the resident apologists will be on here providing more bathing about how FSD is there "in spirit", and how they never "promised". You only have to consider the source of the acronym and the use of the word "Full". A really poor choice for a company that is usually so careful to pick "hedge" words.

 

[lunitiks]

Now this is quality TMC discussion in my opinion. Intelligent, strongly argued posts from "both sides" here.

@182RG, regarding your statement:

They were caught empty when the MobilEye relationship dissolved quickly.

... Altso we must remember that Tesla, according to mr. Musk himself, has issues with the fwd cam pitch angle. Plus, we must also not forget that Tesla has just recently brought to the surface a delicate affair with mr. Sterling Anderson, former boss of the Autopilot program. Now they've replaced him with a fresh face, that obviously needs some time to settle into his new role and get a grip of things.

Tesla is about to launch their absolutely most important product yet. This product will be shipped with the same, 8 cam, 1 radar, 12 ultrasonics, gps and Nvidia hw that AP2 cars have today. Tesla just can't afford to screw this up. Elon recently tweeted that the Autopilot program is "highest priority" (paraphrasing). I believe it. I also believe it's been - and in the following moths will continue to be - one of their biggest headaches.

Come year end 2017: Still no proven FSD capability - some pretty upset buyers...

 

[NerdUno]

Now, anyone who heard the autopilot 2.0 announcement call in the middle of October would know that Elon said 2-3 months which means maybe December, maybe January.

I don't know about rich people who purchase stuff on a website without research, but I'd really recommend that if someone is going to make a purchase, any purchase, that's several thousand dollars that they at least do a little legwork and due diligence.

I think you're forgetting that many ordered an HW2 vehicle immediately following Musk's announcement based upon his representations. All of the disclaimers from Musk and the fanboys as well as the critical articles on the web came much later once people discovered that the video and much of the "announcement" were mostly smoke and mirrors.

 

[JeffK]

I think you're forgetting that many ordered an HW2 vehicle immediately following Musk's announcement based upon his representations. All of the disclaimers from Musk and the fanboys as well as the critical articles on the web came much later once people discovered that the video and much of the "announcement" were mostly smoke and mirrors.

No, go listen to the call. "2 or 3 months" he said

 

[182RG]

that's several thousand dollars that they at least do a little legwork and due diligence.

Jeff, unfortunately this breaks down for the people who:

• Sold/Traded their existing AP1 or AP-less car to get a new car with HW2, expecting parity. This cost more than several thousands.
• Postponed purchase / delayed delivery to get HW2.

Finally, I strongly disagree with "legwork". This advocates that the ownership is on the buyer to cut through the BS spelled out by the manufacturer on the actual order configuration page. Really? What happened to truth in advertising?

 

[stopcrazypp]

Jeff, unfortunately this breaks down for the people who:

• Sold/Traded their existing AP1 or AP-less car to get a new car with HW2, expecting parity. This cost more than several thousands.
• Postponed purchase / delayed delivery to get HW2.

Finally, I strongly disagree with "legwork". This advocates that the ownership is on the buyer to cut through the BS spelled out by the manufacturer on the actual order configuration page. Really? What happened to truth in advertising?

I don't get the impression from the page (even the "expected" release of December) to suggestion parity as soon as the car was purchased. I think the dispute is mostly over the timeline and the completeness (some read that to mean Tesla is guaranteeing a parity release by end of December last year).

The "expected" wording is of course a weasel word that gives Tesla leeway for delays, but I guess if someone does take it to court there can be some argument about it still being misleading.

 

[JeffK]

Jeff, unfortunately this breaks down for the people who:

• Sold/Traded their existing AP1 or AP-less car to get a new car with HW2, expecting parity. This cost more than several thousands.
• Postponed purchase / delayed delivery to get HW2.

Finally, I strongly disagree with "legwork". This advocates that the ownership is on the buyer to cut through the BS spelled out by the manufacturer on the actual order configuration page. Really? What happened to truth in advertising?

We've established that it was not BS, and the manufacturer plus it's CEO clearly stated in the announcement that it might not be December.

Let me give a direct quote to dispel any confusion:

Elon Musk: Yes, this is a new platform, although we’ve been spending more than a year in testing, the feature-set initially will be disabled say well at least for the first few months. The cars with hardware 2.0 which is full autonomous suite will actually have fewer features than cars with Hardware 1.0.

So we expect to reach feature parities following field validation of hardware 2.0 probably in December (2016) so maybe two or three months from now. [oct 19] So for two or three months is actually hardware 1.0 car will be better than a hardware 2.0 car and then approximately every two or three months thereafter is when we expect to release significant improvement in autonomous capability.

Start at 5:08

 

[lunitiks]

He actually didn't say "feature parodies", he said "feature parity". I heard it with my own ears

 

[JeffK]

He actually didn't say "feature parodies", he said "feature parity". I heard it with my own ears

Yeah, I saw that and corrected it. Transcript pulled from Transcript: Elon Musk's Autopilot 2.0 Conference Call

 

[Matias]

arent you glad you are being quoted on Seeking Alpha
""..

Andreas Hopf, Contributor
Comments (22745) |+ Follow |Send Message
Meanwhile, enjoy another betrayed owner at Tesla Motors Club:

"False and misleading advertising used to boost Q4 sales.
I would have definitely held off purchase had I known that AEB would not be available for an unknown time after my purchase. I consider that feature a "must have" and would not consider buying a car that doesn't have it."

http://seekingalpha.com/article/404...estors?v=1486394591&commenter=1&comments=show
..""

What is your point?

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

I neither said that I was upset or that I think Tesla lied.

I was trying to state clearly why other people might understandably feel that way, and further that maybe some people here were not being, let's say, charitable enough to them.

And -- ultimately -- I prefer trying to understand other people's concerns and experiences over yelling them down.

Admittedly I am pretty curious about what is going on with EAP. I'm upset that one of my kids still refuses to eat vegetables.

Then I guess it was a message to those that do feel that way. You're probably more like me then, not surprised or bothered by the current state of AP2, but can understand why other people are.