California, calls and signatures needed to stop EV fee's of $165 per EV per year!!

[gregd]

In addition to weight, another factor in road maintenance (potholes in particular) are the oil drips that ICEs leave along the way. Maybe it's urban legend, but I read somewhere that road maintenance crews can guarantee perpetual employment by "accidentally" spilling a bit of kerosene on the road after they're done. A year or two later, that will be the next pothole to fill...

Point is that EVs don't drip oil, so their impact on the roadways should be less than an equivalent weight ICE, not to mention the environmental and safety impact of all that oil being washed around after a rain storm.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Electric vehicles are already taxed when they charge up at home from the Utility companies.

Perhaps some of those taxes should be transfered over to highway maintenance.

Most of the newer road taxes (and proposed EV taxes) are being siphoned off for mass transit such as trains, trollies, busses etc. If that was spent on roads where it was supposed to me, the roads would be in far better shape.

No need for additional taxes on EV's. They are going a long way to reduce air pollution in our congested cities where most of the medical damage is being done to our citizens.

EV's should be embraced by our governments as a solution to many urban problems instead of being dissuaded with higher taxes.

Liiking forward, investing in Hyperloop technology would be a more positive outcome. Less cars on the road, and quick, quiet, efficient movement of people and cargo between urban areas.

 

[cpa]

Electric vehicles are already taxed when they charge up at home from the Utility companies.

Perhaps some of those taxes should be transfered over to highway maintenance.

Most of the newer road taxes (and proposed EV taxes) are being siphoned off for mass transit such as trains, trollies, busses etc. If that was spent on roads where it was supposed to me, the roads would be in far better shape.

No need for additional taxes on EV's. They are going a long way to reduce air pollution in our congested cities where most of the medical damage is being done to our citizens.

EV's should be embraced by our governments as a solution to many urban problems instead of being dissuaded with higher taxes.

Liiking forward, investing in Hyperloop technology would be a more positive outcome. Less cars on the road, and quick, quiet, efficient movement of people and cargo between urban areas.

Uncle Paul, I do not think that there are additional taxes on our electric bills. At least for us in PG&E territory, our baseline rate is about 20 cents per kWh now. Here is a rounded unbundling of our rate:

Generation: 9.8 cents
Distribution: 8.25 cents
Transmission: 2.5 cents
Other Odds and Ends, including Nuclear Decommissioning, Public Programs: 2.8 cents
There is a 3-cent credit for using the baseline amount.

Note: Amounts do not foot due to rounding.

There is a minuscule "tax" on the bills, but for 90kWh of electricity it amounted to about 3 cents. I hardly consider this as additional taxes paid to charge our BEVs.

I would suspect that SDG&E has a similar unbundling. If any taxes are assessed on your electric bill, they are imposed by your locality. They are not statewide taxes.

 

[mblakele]

This seems like good background reading:

http://facweb.knowlton.ohio-state.edu/pviton/courses2/crp776/776-roads-handout.pdf

 

[NeverFollow]

California, calls and signatures needed to stop EV fee's of $165 per EV per year!!

I didn't vote because none of the choices correspond to my though.
I think that you should had include an 'Other' choice, letting the readers to express their opinion.

- In my personal opinion, I would have choose 'Mileage-Based Fee'

And also a kind or prorate base on the weight of the EV vehicle.

- EV don't pollute when ridding,
but the additional weight can damage the road faster than a lighter car.

Over the full life cycle, most of the pollution generated by any car
is principally caused by building the car itself than using it.

- So, how 'green' was the whole manufacturing process should be a criteria
to consider when determining the taxation.
(For example when the Giga 1 factory will be completed, the full roof will be cover of
solar panel, making the factory 'clean' and sustainable.

 

[Gizmotoy]

I don't mind paying a fair share of road costs, but I'm not too excited about being forced to either:

1. Allow tracking the location of my vehicle by the state
2. Pay CA road tax on miles driven outside of CA

Admittedly, I don't know how you rectify those two without an electrical equivalent of a gas tax, paid in the state where you fuel/charge.

It looks like they'll have an "Unlimited Miles" pass as part of the pilot which presumably gets around both those concerns, but it's bound to be extremely expensive and used mainly by commercial vehicles and ride-sharing owners.

Also, this option sounds ripe for data mining: "Choice of in-vehicle technology, with or without general location data, that reports mileage traveled to a third party account manager which invoices the participant."

 

[Boatguy]

Pay CA road tax on miles driven outside of CA

I participated in the pilot and tried two different approaches: a) report miles monthly and pay per mile, b) buy miles in advance and report less often. There was a form to report miles driven outside of CA, but I think the minimum was 1,000 miles so it didn't come into play when I took a trip to AZ.

It's a bit of a tricky problem, particularly the privacy aspect.

With regard to weight, I've been told by two different director's of public works that the differences between two cars is negligible, trucks and buses are the bigger problem. Which is kind of ironic since fuel taxes are used to subsidize mass transit, which includes buses which in turn do more road damage.

WRT privacy, the reality is that our cars are constantly tracked by Tesla and my guess is that the data is just a subpoena away from being in the hands of the government. My BMW i3 is also tracked, but only when it starts/stops, not in motion.

Assume all EVs are going to be tracked in a similar manner as a "feature", the car companies could actually report where and how much we drove on an monthly basis, setting us up for paying taxes in multiple states if we drive in multiple states. Or they could turn the raw data over to the government and let them do the calculations. The only benefit would be that it's after the fact, the government wouldn't be tracking you in real time.

Early in my career I had to write programs to extract this kind of data for aircraft to pay property taxes on when our airplanes were in a given state, both while in the air and on the ground. So this is not at all unprecedented.

And the reality is that a Federal tax is inevitable as a replacement for the Federal gas taxes which both repair interstate highways and subsidize mass transit.

The bottom line for me is that a tax based on miles and weight (probably non-linear and as it really applies to road wear) seems entirely reasonable, but the actual measurement and collection method is going to be contentious.

 

[gregd]

I would think that the equivalent of a gas tax, being something that is not linkable to personal data, would be for the car to report charging (KWH) instead of distance. Has that been considered?

The only down-side I can see is that vampire charge replacement would count towards that, but it would be easy to back that out of the calculations if you want to get fussy. On the flip side, a tax based on charging energy is independent of the cost of that energy, which has the benefit of eliminating the indexing of tax revenues based on fuel costs (since road damage is not dependent on that).

 

[miimura]

My e-Golf exposes the odometer value in the app. I would have no problem with automakers reporting odometer values to DMV quarterly or annually, or even at every service visit. I am very unlikely to drive my car beyond Reno or Vegas and those side trips are inconsequential. The system would clearly need some way for you to report out of state mileage.

 

[stopcrazypp]

My e-Golf exposes the odometer value in the app. I would have no problem with automakers reporting odometer values to DMV quarterly or annually, or even at every service visit. I am very unlikely to drive my car beyond Reno or Vegas and those side trips are inconsequential. The system would clearly need some way for you to report out of state mileage.

I wouldn't mind a system based on odometer either and I don't drive out of state enough for it to matter.

I guess for people what don't want a tracker, if states can cooperate they can implement a mileage offset system (meaning for miles you report in other states, it offsets your mileage in the current state). However, the rates will have to not be too different (or people will cheat) and the states must share reporting among each other.

I suspect however that there will likely only be two options: either you report all mileage as in state (with no tracking) or you would need to install a tracker if you want exemption for out-of-state miles.

 

[AEdennis]

Perhaps this can be done as an opt-in service with Tesla (or whoever else may be the EV manufacturer). They're already tracking us anyway, so get the total mileage for each state that we drive he car in...

They could even charge a subscription service for it...

 

[David99]

Maybe we should tax tires. This would make it more fair than a flat fee per mile. Different vehicles and drive styles cause more or less road damage.
If you drive like a hooligan, you cause more road damage. Your tires wear out quickly and you pay more. Big semis that cause the most road wear and tear pay much more as they have up to 18 wheels rather than 4. If you drive conservative your tires will last 50k miles and you pay less.

Does that make sense or is that stupid?

 

[mblakele]

Maybe we should tax tires. This would make it more fair than a flat fee per mile. Different vehicles and drive styles cause more or less road damage.
If you drive like a hooligan, you cause more road damage. Your tires wear out quickly and you pay more. Big semis that cause the most road wear and tear pay much more as they have up to 18 wheels rather than 4. If you drive conservative your tires will last 50k miles and you pay less.

Does that make sense or is that stupid?

It has some merit. But you'd have to make sure people couldn't dodge the tax by buying tires out of state, etc. Those who wear out tires fastest would have the most incentive to cheat, especially commercial users like trucking companies. As I understand it they cause most of the road damage too.

I used to report my odometer to State Farm every six months, as part of a discount program. It wasn't a big deal: usually I'd do it from my phone.

 

[Ampster]

In my little California beach town of Hermosa Beach EVs get free parking at all meters. I also get free resident parking permit for my EVs. I am not opposed to paying my fair share of the road tax if I was assured the money was actually going into highway repairs. I did sign up for the pilot program.

 

[Uncle Paul]

I thought the idea was that governments were supposed to encourage the conversion to electric vehicles, just as they are doing with rooftop solar. This is because burning fossil fuels in dense urban environments causes pollution, which sickens the inhabitants and increases significantly the health care burden for those citizens as well as for the governments

The more you tax something the less you get of it.

For the first time, significant volume of affordable family electric vehicles are ramping up, and part of their appeal is less taxes over the lifetime of the vehicle.

Why tax something you want more of?

Currently governments are not spending all of the road taxes collected on servicing roads. The pet projects of busses, light rail, car pool lanes are sucking up more and more of these funds, leaving the legacy roads to crumble and degrade.

Instead of more taxes, why not just spend the current road taxes collected to fix up the roads we already have.

 

[Boatguy]

part of their appeal is less taxes over the lifetime of the vehicle.

Really? You bought a $100K EV because you expected to pay less taxes? No amount of free road taxes pays for a Model S.

Why tax something you want more of?

Because EVs also want good roads and they don't happen for free?

How do you propose to fund road construction and repair if not by taxing the vehicles that use them?

 

[jeffro01]

While I agree that EVs should be proportionally taxed to use public infrastructure that's primarily funded by the gas tax, I'm not sure I've seen an idea/proposal that I fully agree with yet... Yet... That's the key word...

However, the idea that EVs should simply get a pass is ridiculous... Specifically on this proposal, the fee doesn't seem all that unreasonable... Does it?

Jeff

 

[Uncle Paul]

Really? You bought a $100K EV because you expected to pay less taxes? No amount of free road taxes pays for a Model S.


Because EVs also want good roads and they don't happen for free?

How do you propose to fund road construction and repair if not by taxing the vehicles that use them?

Costs played a lot into my selection. I bought my X for $85K. Getting $7,500 from Fed and 2,500 from California. Get to ride single in car pools, Don't pay for gas, Can deduct $25,000 Section179 from my business, get 30% back on my plug install. All these things add up as I am a business person, and try to make good choices for my vehicles. (Happen to love the car).

The proposed road tax for EV's will hit hardest on those buying Leafs, Model 3 and some of the very highly discounted EV's like the Fiat. These people are pinching pennies to get into an EV, and while being environmentally conscious, they do not wish to be taxed for every mile they drive.

If the Government would just spend all the road taxes on roads, instead of light rail, trollies, high speed rail, busses and other transports that pay Zero road taxes, our roads would be in much better shape.

Hyperloop can't come fast enough (but I guess they will tax that too)

 

[Ulmo]

I didn't vote because none of the choices correspond to my though.
I think that you should had include an 'Other' choice, letting the readers to express their opinion.

- In my personal opinion, I would have choose 'Mileage-Based Fee'

And also a kind or prorate base on the weight of the EV vehicle.

Proportional not to the weight, but to the damage per weight per wheel (since different axle separations, positions, number and wheel sizes have different impact by far, and because the damage per weight is very very non-linear).

- EV don't pollute when ridding,
but the additional weight can damage the road faster than a lighter car.

Yes, but not much, compared to the additional weight by larger vehicles; it is not linear.

Over the full life cycle, most of the pollution generated by any car
is principally caused by building the car itself than using it.

Is there more information about this? Google didn't know.

- So, how 'green' was the whole manufacturing process should be a criteria
to consider when determining the taxation.
(For example when the Giga 1 factory will be completed, the full roof will be cover of
solar panel, making the factory 'clean' and sustainable.

That should happen during purchase, instead of in road taxes. Road taxes should be for roads.

The bottom line for me is that a tax based on miles and weight (probably non-linear and as it really applies to road wear) seems entirely reasonable

I agree with the miles and weight toll tax.

 

[Ulmo]

I don't mind paying a fair share of road costs, but I'm not too excited about being forced to either:

1. Allow tracking the location of my vehicle by the state

I participated in the road tax pilot program in California. They had three choices of how to record:

1. Write it down.
2. Smartphone app.
3. ODB tracker.

I chose #3, ODB tracker (Azuga). It started sending me alerts for excessive acceleration, excessive braking, "going faster than economical", and a whole bunch of other crap. It felt like The Fifth Element. I did not like that at all. It was a better tracker by far than TeslaFi or any other tracker I have had. It had that and a map of all the trips and speeds and such on a web site, like TeslaFi.

I never plugged it into my Tesla; I forgot it in a rental car, and it tracked a bunch of car renters for about 3-4 months until it finally came back to Northern California and I tracked it and got it back.

My point is that it is a back door into doing much more than collecting an additional tax; it's a way to spy on what they think of as an "appropriate" driving style.

Also, this option sounds ripe for data mining: "Choice of in-vehicle technology, with or without general location data, that reports mileage traveled to a third party account manager which invoices the participant."

I.e., Azuga. Yes, it is. And worse.

WRT privacy, the reality is that our cars are constantly tracked by Tesla and my guess is that the data is just a subpoena away from being in the hands of the government.

That's one more step than them just already having it. Plus, we can chose whether or not to use Tesla based upon their need to tell us to drive in a certain style.

the actual measurement and collection method is going to be contentious.

The collection method ought to be privacy protecting. The entities I need privacy protection from are generally gangs, including political, religious, commercial, and other ones. So, you're probably right about the "contentious" part if Azuga is any indication.