SlyWombat
Member
And they did not even have to speculate if Tesla remembered to hire a snow removal company to clear the charging bays!!!
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And they did not even have to speculate if Tesla remembered to hire a snow removal company to clear the charging bays!!!
And even more funny for those arguments as where the Superchargers SHOULD placed, which boils down to : my route is more important than your route.
I doubt if there will be any supercharger in Canada by fall 2015 (boy, I sure hope I am wrong though).
Vger
Active Member
If June is going to happen, construction has to commence soon. That would be nice to see, but given the problems encountered, it could be later in the summer.
I'm not going to believe any promises until the first Supercharger starts construction. Once that happens I expect the floodgates to open. My suspicion is they're still having trouble getting approvals.
mknox
Well-Known Member
Agree. And I don't think it's site or electric utility approvals. Most likely CSA or ULC certification on the equipment itself. It could also be that the equipment is designed for the more common 277/480 volt systems in the US while here in Canada, 347/600v is more common.
Cottonwood
Roadster#433, Model S#S37
That would be an issue, but because the Supercharger site uses its own transformer, couldn't the local utility just install a U.S., 277/480-Volt transformer for the Supercharger?
mknox
Well-Known Member
Yes, but then the utility would have to charge for MUCH more expensive primary metering. (The utility meter would have to be on the high voltage side). The utility could install a 347/600 volt transformer and meter on the secondary side, then Tesla could transform that to whatever they need. My guess is that is how it is done in the US, only Tesla is taking 277/480 from the utility.
This has become a concern with CHAdeMO chargers in Canada. A second transformer is required to step down to 480 volts that most CHAdeMO equipment is designed to take.
Vger
Active Member
This indeed smells very much like the loooong delays to get Tesla into Canada in the first place, while Transport Canada satisfied themselves. Now its the turn of the utilities and municipalities to analyze this alien American technology to death. :wink:
KenN
Member
Generally, BC Hydro will not supply 480VAC to a site, with a few exceptions for legacy sites that were operational before Canada went 600VAC as the three-phase low voltage standard. There's nothing stopping an end user from stepping the 600V down to 480VAC with their own transformer, after the metering box. However, that does mean buying your own transformer. BC Hydro supplies their own xfmr to sites requiring less than 167 kVA per phase, but only to BCH standard voltage of 600V.
So, if one wants 480V, then one needs to budget for these additional transformers. And you can bet that BCH will not be flexible on this.
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I did make note of the labelling on HPWC hardware last time I was in the service center - they do have the C UL mark on it. So presumably someone in the department called something like "charging systems" or w/e is aware of the requirement for Canadian specific approvals. Hopefully the HPWC team communicates with the S/C team!
So, if one wants 480V, then one needs to budget for these additional transformers. And you can bet that BCH will not be flexible on this.
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I did make note of the labelling on HPWC hardware last time I was in the service center - they do have the C UL mark on it. So presumably someone in the department called something like "charging systems" or w/e is aware of the requirement for Canadian specific approvals. Hopefully the HPWC team communicates with the S/C team!
Vger
Active Member
Ha! I learn something new every day. This sounds like it could be the whole hold-up with Squamish, and all the other BC sites!
CSA is known as one of the certification bodies that tends to push the envelope on requirements; companies often have to take Canadian rules into account if they want worldwide certification. It's possible that they're the ones holding this up. (It might be a little more complicated because of deregulation; other companies such as UL and ETL compete with CSA for the actual certification services. They all have to use the CSA standards though.)
KenN
Member
For the benefit of anyone who doesn't know it ... C UL is effectively the same as CSA. UL means approved by US to their standard, C UL means approved by UL inspectors to the CSA standard as part of a bi-lateral agreement.
The problems happen when US companies design/manufacture equipment approved for local use (UL), then try to ship the same gear to Canada without going through a separate C UL or CSA approvals process. A trade electrician is obligated to refuse installation that doesn't carry the mark showing CSA or C UL approval.
The problems happen when US companies design/manufacture equipment approved for local use (UL), then try to ship the same gear to Canada without going through a separate C UL or CSA approvals process. A trade electrician is obligated to refuse installation that doesn't carry the mark showing CSA or C UL approval.
Hey Zax,
Both times at the supercharger at Albany, coming and going, we had time to eat lunch and that was about it. I had set it to range charge but never let it finish (you know the never ending minute(s) left to finish) as we had enough to get to where we were going. Laval to Albany I should have paid a bit more attention early on because I only had 5 miles of range left when we arrived. I had a harder time keeping my usage to rated values and am not sure it was because of the hills, extra weight (had two coworkers with me that I picked up in Verdun), or wind but I had the list of charging options at the ready if I thought I couldn't make it and the charging stalls were easy to find. We were actually going to Burlington MA which is just outside of Boston and none of the corporate approved hotels had charging support so the first night I charged off of a plug connected with the lights and so were only active during the night but I figured I would rather have the extra 15-20 miles as a buffer. I could have gone to Natick (about 25 miles away) if I needed a charge but I ended up finding a free Chargepoint j1772 within a 15 minute walk from the office to charge at the next day. The one person I talked to seemed excited to see someone use it as he said I was the first car they had seen charge there and did not care that I was not visiting the office where it was setup. It was perfect as I had meetings all day and ended up finishing a range charge because they also took us out to supper before I went to pick up the car. I had another option within walking distance but it cost $2.50 and hour or $0.45 a kWh (not sure if it was really per hour or it was an estimate based on the price per kWh and the 30A of the charger). The way back I did not need to watch the range so we stayed with the faster traffic and relied on the Supercharger to fill us up quickly. The trip back from Albany was made easier because I was doing some drafting behind trucks but there was a period where the weather was awful with heavy rain at times but I still made it home after dropping everybody off with 20 km of range left.
All in all the trip was a breeze and when they add in the other chargers at Burlington VT and another it seems about halfway between there and Boston this trip will be even easier without having watch your range closely and to draft trucks to make it.
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Cottonwood
Roadster#433, Model S#S37
Remember, the vast majority of Supercharger Sites do not share their transformer with any other electricity users.
Most Superchargers that I have seen in the U.S. have a CT meter connected to the Distribution Center that senses the Voltage directly and the current through Current Transformers (CT's). Because the Supercharger site is isolated from any other users, why can't there just be a meter on the secondary side of the 480V, 3-Phase transformer. The new meters read kWh vs time in great detail, and have many ways of reporting that info to the utility. Someone must make a meter that is compatible with the Canadian Utilities, that will correctly measure energy use on a 480 Volt secondary.
Is there some compatibility issue here that I don't understand or have overlooked?
mknox
Well-Known Member
There are a couple of issues here:
Utilities will allow any type of customer-owned transformer, but require that the site be primary metered so that the meter can account for the transformer losses. This would be very expensive for a supercharger site since it would require an outdoor-rated high voltage switchgear with metering compartment.
My suspicion is that the Supercharger equipment is designed for 480 volts from the utility. In that case, the utility would supply power at 277/480 volts and meter at that level. Tesla would, in turn, take that level of power and do with it what they may.
Canadian utilities do not provide 277/480 volt transformers, so there is that. Even if Tesla supplied the transformer, it would have to conform with utility standards for losses if it is to be metered on the secondary side. To further complicate matters, metering in Canada is subject to Measurement Canada rules and requirements, and I don't believe there is a meter approved for that voltage here. Sure, there are US meters that would work, but Canadian utilities can't use them since they wouldn't be "sealed" by Measurement Canada.
This issue has come up at some CHAdeMO sites. The utility supplies and meters power at 347/600 volts and the installer has to supply an additional transformer to step the 347/600 volt feed down to 277/480 for the CHAdeMO equipment.
Mayhemm
Model S P85+ "Lola"
Is Canada kind of unique in being this stringent? Or will Tesla have had to face similar issues in other countries?
Cottonwood
Roadster#433, Model S#S37
Looks like a good application for a "Buck" transformer. See Buck/Boost transformer - Wikipedia. In this case, 3 each of 347:70 transformers could be used make 277 Volts as 347-70 Volts; process everything in the "Wye" space. The advantage of this is that 70 Volts is only about 1/4 of 277 Volts and therefore the total kVA of the transformers is only about 1/4 of 347:277 transformers and therefore 1/4 the size, weight, and probably cost. It's very common in the U.S. to convert 208 Volts to 240 Volts and vice versa. I have looked into them for getting a full 240 Volts on High Amp J1772 EVSE's.
OTOH, I bet that there are some 3-Phase, CT meters rated for 347 Volts that can measure 277 Volts just fine...
When the Canadian sites start going up, the local observers will have to see how things are put together.
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