Cancelling my reservation

[m34me]

If I may respond:
"Faster variants, done (started with, obviously)" oh really? why obviously? I remember that car being advertised as a 35K car, not available years later than more profitable premium versions. I believe I have been more than patient. Day 2 reservation with a date (now) of early 2019, that is BS.

"Model 3 is designed to achieve the highest safety ratings in every category. Combined with 220* to 310 miles of range and a starting price of $35,000 before incentives, Model 3 is Tesla’s most affordable vehicle yet."

This is from the Tesla website in 2016, where is this $35,000 car I reserved based on their promises?

Why is the AWD version now being delivered in front of the 35K version? If the answer is to make more profit, you'd be right and it sucks for the hundreds of thousands of reservers who lent Elon 400 million bucks interest-free. If you tell the world you have delivered a 35K car how about doing it?

"Unless you are so audacious/deluded that you would claim you were being promised the faster variants starting at $35K, too"
No, I just wanted the 35k car he promised. Don't use strawman arguments.

I saw my estimated delivery date go from Dec 2017 to early 2018 and now early 2019, which will ensure I get no tax credit, and you are surprised we aren't happy with this, and that we are some kind of entitled, impatient millennials or something?

I saw in another post you responded to a similar complaint as mine with "You are missing a crucial point, beyond "should've have done more research". You were NOT told that the $35K variant would be first. So this "Elon time" doesn't even apply to that." How on Earth is it presumptuous to assume a car advertised as being at "a starting price of $35,000 before incentives" is actually purchasable for the base price?

It's funny you mention Jobs as I see the Apple-cult mentality strong on this forum. Shun the unbelievers!

 

[MXWing]

Has there ever been another case of any auto maker anywhere in the world only wanting to make their most expensive and profitable versions of a car, and refusing to make the base model?

I understand about Tesla wanting to become profitable, but that's their problem, don't make it an issue for me trying to get my $36K Model 3, base model with white paint.

NO YOU DONT.

 

[m34me]

NO YOU DONT.

Sure I do, that's why I wrote it! But they are paying the price in upsetting non-existing owners with their delivery and quality issues.

 

[m34me]

Sure I do, that's why I wrote it! But they are paying the price in upsetting non-existing owners with their delivery and quality issues.

It's called expectation management.

 

[bonaire]

If I may respond:
"Faster variants, done (started with, obviously)" oh really? why obviously? I remember that car being advertised as a 35K car, not available years later than more profitable premium versions. I believe I have been more than patient. Day 2 reservation with a date (now) of early 2019, that is BS.

"Model 3 is designed to achieve the highest safety ratings in every category. Combined with 220* to 310 miles of range and a starting price of $35,000 before incentives, Model 3 is Tesla’s most affordable vehicle yet."

This is from the Tesla website in 2016, where is this $35,000 car I reserved based on their promises?

Why is the AWD version now being delivered in front of the 35K version? If the answer is to make more profit, you'd be right and it sucks for the hundreds of thousands of reservers who lent Elon 400 million bucks interest-free. If you tell the world you have delivered a 35K car how about doing it?

"Unless you are so audacious/deluded that you would claim you were being promised the faster variants starting at $35K, too"
No, I just wanted the 35k car he promised. Don't use strawman arguments.

I saw my estimated delivery date go from Dec 2017 to early 2018 and now early 2019, which will ensure I get no tax credit, and you are surprised we aren't happy with this, and that we are some kind of entitled, impatient millennials or something?

I saw in another post you responded to a similar complaint as mine with "You are missing a crucial point, beyond "should've have done more research". You were NOT told that the $35K variant would be first. So this "Elon time" doesn't even apply to that." How on Earth is it presumptuous to assume a car advertised as being at "a starting price of $35,000 before incentives" is actually purchasable for the base price?

It's funny you mention Jobs as I see the Apple-cult mentality strong on this forum. Shun the unbelievers!

You were eager enough to do a deposit without even seeing one. And now you don't want it because you won't get Govt Money in order to pay a significant portion of it? If your tax liability allows for 7500 in credits, you have reasonably good income. Why can't you buy one without the tax credit anyway? Is the car not good enough without this credit? I don't get the back-lash from people who can't get the credit for themselves as if they are owed that money from the government for some reason. Tesla sells the car - the govt gives the tax credit. Could Tesla survive without this tax credit? Seems interesting to posit this situation.

 

[bonaire]

My own "filter" is that when Elon says he will do something with a certain time frame, I add 2-5 years to the time frame. And I keep an open mind that time frames can change because so much can go wrong.

I also like to remind people that Elon, however talented, is still human and can still make mistakes. It does bother me when some people treat him like a deity, much like Steve Jobs was once worshiped. In an era where people are used to a new iPhone every year and instant status updates on Twitter, I think levelheadedness and patience are warranted. Building complicated machines in mass numbers is tough.

100,000 Trucks per year - in four years seems like it lines up with your note here.

 

[jbcarioca]

All this furor is sad. I feel sad for the people who thought they would be able to have the base model upon launch. I feel sad especially for teh people who have stretched finances to serve and wait.

Many of us posting here, not most, paid cash for our grotesquely expensive wildly extravagant PxxD S's and X's. Those who have done that can be unsympathetic to people who have neither resources nor inclination to do such things. Most active participants in these foraa are perfectly ready see the world in "Elon time" and ignore delays, imperfections also we forgive or ignore.

Now Tesla is making transition to near mainstream automotive and industrial products. Timing and forecasts become more material issues than they previously were.

I have been an early adopter for decades. Cars, airplanes, boats, computers, photovoltaics...I did them all when waiting times were years and teh finished products were not perfected.

Anybody who understands product life cycles will know we are leaving the era of Tesla early adopters, so ending the era of customers as final acceptance testers for beta versions.

By the end of 2018 Tesla needs to be delivering close to 10,000 Model 3 per week with all versions from pure base to PxxD. That might even be possible. Will they all have industry norm assembly quality? Somehow I think so. There will be more drama along the way, though, so everyone needs patience.

FWIW, one way or another lots fo people will indeed have access to US federal tax credits. When will they run out? Good question, nobody really knows. Washington, DC, if we've not noticed, is a moving target. OTOH, Nevada Republicans are in favor of extensions.

 

[NewTMSMan]

[QUOTE="jbcarioca, post: 2563263, member: 32196"

Anybody who understands product life cycles will know we are leaving the era of Tesla early adopters, so ending the era of customers as final acceptance testers for beta versions.

[/QUOTE]

All good points, but do not expect we are leaving the era of being Beta testers, this has just begun. This is a core mantra in development of digital products and you can see it more broadly in many areas now from phones, to Garmin watches to our cars. All digital products are pushed out as what would have been considered Beta products now and get fixed on the fly ,because you can. This is all wrapped up in marketing that tells you new and better features will be delivered soon. Now with respect to hardware, I agree, I would love to see the costs that Tesla bears for this approach fixing many cars at the Service Centers post delivery.

 

[diamond.g]

If I may respond:
"Faster variants, done (started with, obviously)" oh really? why obviously? I remember that car being advertised as a 35K car, not available years later than more profitable premium versions. I believe I have been more than patient. Day 2 reservation with a date (now) of early 2019, that is BS.

"Model 3 is designed to achieve the highest safety ratings in every category. Combined with 220* to 310 miles of range and a starting price of $35,000 before incentives, Model 3 is Tesla’s most affordable vehicle yet."

This is from the Tesla website in 2016, where is this $35,000 car I reserved based on their promises?

Why is the AWD version now being delivered in front of the 35K version? If the answer is to make more profit, you'd be right and it sucks for the hundreds of thousands of reservers who lent Elon 400 million bucks interest-free. If you tell the world you have delivered a 35K car how about doing it?

"Unless you are so audacious/deluded that you would claim you were being promised the faster variants starting at $35K, too"
No, I just wanted the 35k car he promised. Don't use strawman arguments.

I saw my estimated delivery date go from Dec 2017 to early 2018 and now early 2019, which will ensure I get no tax credit, and you are surprised we aren't happy with this, and that we are some kind of entitled, impatient millennials or something?

I saw in another post you responded to a similar complaint as mine with "You are missing a crucial point, beyond "should've have done more research". You were NOT told that the $35K variant would be first. So this "Elon time" doesn't even apply to that." How on Earth is it presumptuous to assume a car advertised as being at "a starting price of $35,000 before incentives" is actually purchasable for the base price?

It's funny you mention Jobs as I see the Apple-cult mentality strong on this forum. Shun the unbelievers!

Out of curiosity, when you made a reservation, did it ask you which version you wanted? I didn't see an option to do so when I reserved.

 

[206er]

Out of curiosity, when you made a reservation, did it ask you which version you wanted? I didn't see an option to do so when I reserved.

We (the mass market) were led to believe we were eeservong a $35k Tesla, and that by doing so early, we were significantly increasing our chances of securing the full federal tax credit.

 

[diamond.g]

We (the mass market) were led to believe we were eeservong a $35k Tesla, and that by doing so early, we were significantly increasing our chances of securing the full federal tax credit.

Maybe I was more pragmatic about it. I figured I was just reserving a spot in line to order a car. Now should Tesla allow you to order your 35k car now and just not deliver it until next year? I don't think that would go over well either.

 

[outdoors]

We (the mass market) were led to believe we were eeservong a $35k Tesla, and that by doing so early, we were significantly increasing our chances of securing the full federal tax credit.

Can someone point me to where Tesla said that they were making cars so people could get the tax credit? Especially for the $35k version. I haven't seen that from Tesla. Could be wrong. Often I am very wrong.

Only place I can find it are from the hopes and dreams I am reading here on TMC.

It's a crappy feeling. Placing reservations to time with the end of leases, birth of babies, and work/life changes. Many of the current owners went through this with other models. It's like who went and dumped my apple cart for the second or third time. Yet something strange happens. People who run companies, manage thousands of time sensitive projects keep putting their chin up to Tesla. You know why? They love it. They love the idea, the concept, the image, the product, the fun, and most of all the grin. Hope everyone sticks around despite the cheese being moved and the cart being dumped. A few rotten apples can't spoil my bunch.

Subsidies. I would hope the go the way of the wind. Tesla has a good product that people want to buy. Lines of those people.

 

[ℬête Noire]

"Faster variants, done (started with, obviously)" oh really?

Yes. The LR is faster.

why obviously?

Even if you didn't know how Tesla cars generally work, public announcement (when the LR was revealed). Plus a number of 3rd party publications have done benchmarks.

I remember that car being advertised as a 35K car, not available years later than more profitable premium versions.

"Years later"? I suggest we put a pin in that for when/if that happens.

I believe I have been more than patient. Day 2 reservation with a date (now) of early 2019, that is BS. "Model 3 is designed to achieve the highest safety ratings in every category. Combined with 220* to 310 miles of range and a starting price of $35,000 before incentives, Model 3 is Tesla’s most affordable vehicle yet."

This is from the Tesla website in 2016, where is this $35,000 car I reserved based on their promises?

Has it been canceled? Your unrealistic assumptions are NOT someone else's broken promise. That's the crux of the matter here.
.. same with "If you tell the world you have delivered a 35K car how about doing it?"

Why is the AWD version now being delivered in front of the 35K version?

My guess is because there are so damn many people that are want an LR that that's clogging the system.

If the answer is to make more profit, you'd be right and it sucks for the hundreds of thousands of reservers who lent Elon 400 million bucks interest-free. If you tell the world you have delivered a 35K car how about doing it?

Profit? Errrr, you can paint it that way but it's really more about efficiency. Getting the assembly line to create more wealth (in the general sense) via at the efficiency of the LR. There are so many orders for the LR that it's going to take time to get through the meat of those for 1st day (much less 2nd day, like you and me).

"Unless you are so audacious/deluded that you would claim you were being promised the faster variants starting at $35K, too"
No, I just wanted the 35k car he promised. Don't use strawman arguments.

Strawman? *snicker*

What you really are saying: "I demand something I wasn't promised, physical realities and ultimately harm of my self-interests be damned."

I saw my estimated delivery date go from Dec 2017

This is interesting, when was this? You did understand from the start that there was about 200K people worldwide in line in front of you?

...to early 2018 and now early 2019...

That's why it is an estimate. Yeah, things happen. I do think Tesla/Musk is somewhat unrealistic about the general public's ability to handle/process what are largely internal planning numbers. That's one place where they are pretty much the polar opposite of Apple who are, and under Jobs famously/infamously more so, opaque and secretive about their internal timelines and plans.

....which will ensure I get no tax credit....

The myth/hyperbole/whining that Just. Won't. Die.

EDIT: You did know about the 200K cut-off, that it was for ALL the vehicles that Tesla had ever sold? And you knew you were well over 200K orders back of the line, right? Did you really conclude in your mind that Tesla was going go from near nothing to delivering 200K units in about 4-5months?

Perhaps you just didn't think that through?

, and you are surprised we aren't happy with this, and that we are some kind of entitled, impatient millennials or something?

Dude, this is my experience too. I'm morning of Apr 1, 2016. I'm not happy about how that part will shake out, I certainly understand that park. I also sure has hell NEVER use "millennials" like that, EVER, rather I use it as a good indicator that there's probably some gramps-on-the-lawn-shaking-their-anger-fist-at-the-kids-these-days-for-doing-what-he-did/does nonsense. Which I expect is why you are imagining I'd say it, it'd make things easy for you to peg me as something that's easy to knock down?

What you are doing with that unhappiness though, that's what I take issue with. It's a poor excuse for lashing out irrationally.

I saw in another post you responded to a similar complaint as mine with "You are missing a crucial point, beyond "should've have done more research". You were NOT told that the $35K variant would be first. So this "Elon time" doesn't even apply to that." How on Earth is it presumptuous to assume a car advertised as being at "a starting price of $35,000 before incentives" is actually purchasable for the base price?

If you look at the context you'll see that is NOT what I suggested. It is the timing of the matter. Go back and reread, please.

It's funny you mention Jobs as I see the Apple-cult mentality strong on this forum.

It's no "cult mentality" to call out irrational misplacing of anger. It's roughly the antithesis of it, in fact.

Shun the unbelievers!

There isn't an big enough.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

I saw my estimated delivery date go from Dec 2017 to early 2018 and now early 2019, which will ensure I get no tax credit,

The tax credit doesn't instantly go away. It is gradually phased out over a 15 to 18 month period once 200,000 US deliveries have been made. Chances are the tax credit will still exist for 9 months in 2019, maybe even all of 2019.

 

[ℬête Noire]

The tax credit doesn't instantly go away. It is gradually phased out over a 15 to 18 month period once 200,000 US deliveries have been made. Chances are the tax credit will still exist for 9 months in 2019, maybe even all of 2019.

A big part of the issue for his situation is that it looks like signed up behind somewhere between 200K and 300K people, worldwide (depends on when in 2nd day he signed up). He never was never really at the front of the line, per se.

So if he's holding out for some specific build to come online it is possible if Tesla slips a lot more, and depending on how they time rolling out internationally, he could end up outside the window entirely.

I mean, maybe given how he's handling things so far it's best that he thinks he'll not get any tax credit? So he'll be happier if it does end up he gets something? *shrug*

 

[N5329K]

Now Tesla is making transition to near mainstream automotive and industrial products. Timing and forecasts become more material issues than they previously were.
I think it's a little premature to say they are making that transition. I think it's fair to say they are trying to make that transition. It seems to me they are at a perilous point where they could go forward and capture a bigger segment of the mainstream automotive market (and really advance the electrification of transport), or fall back to remain a niche manufacturer of expensive EV's for the luxury market.
Nobody promised (that I saw) that base models would be available first, second, third or fourth. Only that they would be terrific and Tesla would build them. There was a lot of cute "...and with tax credits, this car will only cost...." which led, no surprise, a lot of people (hundreds of thousands?) to think they might actually be able to own a beautiful EV for the price of an average ICE car.
Those people have now been told, Um, no. We need to build out the high-margin models first because we need the money to survive.
How they react to this news (joy in Canada, less so here), will have some bearing on whether Tesla makes that transition, or not.
Robin

 

[MorrisonHiker]

A big part of the issue for his situation is that it looks like signed up behind somewhere between 200K and 300K people, worldwide (depends on when in 2nd day he signed up). He never was never really at the front of the line, per se.

So if he's holding out for some specific build to come online it is possible if Tesla slips a lot more, and depending on how they time rolling out internationally, he could end up outside the window entirely.

I mean, maybe given how he's handling things so far it's best that he thinks he'll not get any tax credit? So he'll be happier if it does happen? *shrug*

There isn't a limit on the number of cars which receive the tax credit. The 200,000 limit is when the countdown starts. After that, there's an unlimited number of cars which can receive it within the 6 quarters. If Tesla could build 500,000 more cars during that time, then they would all receive the tax credit.

If Tesla hit 200,000 today, the tax credit would still be around for 6 months in 2019. They are probably timing it so they hit at the beginning of the 2nd or 3rd quarter...so the credit will most likely be around for 9 to 12 months in 2019. He still has a good chance of getting a partial tax credit.

 

[ℬête Noire]

There isn't a limit on the number of cars which receive the tax credit. The 200,000 limit is when the countdown starts. After that, there's an unlimited number of cars which can receive it within the 6 quarters. If Tesla could build 500,000 more cars during that time, then they would all receive the tax credit.

If Tesla hit 200,000 today, the tax credit would still be around for 6 months in 2019. They are probably timing it so they hit at the beginning of the 2nd or 3rd quarter...so the credit will most likely be around for 9 to 12 months in 2019. He still has a good chance of getting a partial tax credit.

There is some [currently unknown] practical limit on how many vehicles Tesla can get out by a given time on the ramp.

That's why when I signed up (Apr 1, 2016, for brevity I'll not go into why I didn't day 1) I did so on the assumption that it was low odds I'd see any tax credit. I knew that the trigger would happen very early, because of the S/X/Roadster sales (maybe even effectively before Model 3 rolled out if there were Model X-like issues). Going from 0 units to 10K/month nearly instantaneously would be crazy fast....and then Tesla said, "hey, we're going to try do that sort of crazy thing, to try get cars out to people that want them".

I mean, holy crap. Put into perspective, while it is quite reasonable to not be happy about the tax credit outcome or the wait into 2019 for the SR, it makes no rational sense for someone in my position in the reservation line to dump on Tesla/Musk on this matter.

 

[bonaire]

There isn't a limit on the number of cars which receive the tax credit. The 200,000 limit is when the countdown starts. After that, there's an unlimited number of cars which can receive it within the 6 quarters. If Tesla could build 500,000 more cars during that time, then they would all receive the tax credit.

If Tesla hit 200,000 today, the tax credit would still be around for 6 months in 2019. They are probably timing it so they hit at the beginning of the 2nd or 3rd quarter...so the credit will most likely be around for 9 to 12 months in 2019. He still has a good chance of getting a partial tax credit.

They did make it very complicated. heck, even some dealerships (both non-Tesla and even Tesla) call it a "tax rebate" and don't help customers know the implications of their own situation. it's a Tax Credit against your annual tax liability. I have seen numerous people complain that they didn't "get their 7500 rebate".

 

[ohmman]

mod note: 6 posts moved to snippiness.

I know people are upset, but let's try to be nice to each other. If someone's not upset, it doesn't mean they're "drinking Kool-aid" (and by the way, this term will get you straight into snippiness). If someone is upset, it doesn't mean they've got no basis, either. Everyone has different expectations, and the difference between this new reality and their expectations is the amount of disappointment they need to manage.