Catastrophic AC failure

[REDI KW]

The ac compressor just failed on our RWD 2016.5 MS75 at 98500 miles. We were driving back to AZ from LA on the 10 freeway and got a warning that ac was limited and supercharging may be reduced. We barely made to the Ehrenburg SC as power and regen. slowly dropped to less than 5% and our speed was limited to 37mph on even slight inclines forcing us to dive into the breakdown lane to avoid the trucks. The temps were 110+ at 3PM when we arrived. We got a room while the car charged at 2kw and it slowly climbed to 45kw. We left at 3AM and drove straight to the Glendale AZ service center in Phoenix arriving at 8:30AM. To our surprise, they were open on a Sunday and accepted the car with an estimate of $1500 for repairs. The service writer called on Tuesday with a revised estimate of $6500 stating that the compressor had failed internally and scattered debris throughout the system, the entire system would have to be removed, replaced with new parts flushed and recharged. The final invoice listed the total parts as $1874.86 and labor as 4236.60.

Service assured me that the battery did not show any errors and would not be adversely effected by the heat stress it was subjected to. So far, it has charged normally at home and the Cordes Lakes SC.

Two Questions:
1) Have I done long-term damage to the battery?
2) If they started work on Tuesday and delivered it on Thursday, how can there be over $4200 in labor???

 

[PCMc]

See my reply in the other thread where you posted the exact same thing.

AC compressor & Receiver dryer/desiccant

Hello, The ac compressor on my ‘18 model s is pretty loud and we decided to take it in to have it checked and replaced. One, not crazy about the diagnosis fee but whatever. Second, they came back with the report that we need to replace the ac compressor (what I told them all along) and they also...

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[ucmndd]

1) Have I done long-term damage to the battery?

No.

2) If they started work on Tuesday and delivered it on Thursday, how can there be over $4200 in labor???

Labor at pretty much any shop is calculated on a “book rate”, as in how long it should typically take to complete a job - not how long it actually takes them (be it longer or shorter).

Tesla shop rates are generally $200+ an hour these days. That said, 21 hours of labor - even to completely replace/flush/whatever the whole HVAC system - seems high.

 

[houstonian]

Seems high - can you share your estimate?

Here's mine from last year. 2017 S75D.

3rd time I replaced the damn compressor.

 

[houstonian]

Also found this one too - 2021 - and had an emergency repair done at the PHX SC on E University drive.

 

[TLLMRRJ]

No.

Labor at pretty much any shop is calculated on a “book rate”, as in how long it should typically take to complete a job - not how long it actually takes them (be it longer or shorter).

Tesla shop rates are generally $200+ an hour these days. That said, 21 hours of labor - even to completely replace/flush/whatever the whole HVAC system - seems high.

And good chance they cut some corners on cleaning out the system to do it even faster, but still charged the 21 hours. Even if they didn't clean everything out properly, they know the AC will last past whatever short warranty period they gave on the work. Unfortunately, this is common.

 

[TacoGuy]

And good chance they cut some corners on cleaning out the system to do it even faster, but still charged the 21 hours. Even if they didn't clean everything out properly, they know the AC will last past whatever short warranty period they gave on the work. Unfortunately, this is common.

That's a general problem with auto industry. Tesla writes the repair manual and specifies job hours. Labor rates are regional, but the job can usually get done with shortcuts and they'll still charge you the full labor rate against book specified job hours. The practice should be illegal.

 

[ucmndd]

That's a general problem with auto industry. Tesla writes the repair manual and specifies job hours. Labor rates are regional, but the job can usually get done with shortcuts and they'll still charge you the full labor rate against book specified job hours. The practice should be illegal.

On the contrary, if a job ends up taking 100% longer than the book estimate, are you prepared to pay double?

Book rates may not be perfect but they have benefits to both the shop and the consumer.

 

[REDI KW]

Seems high - can you share your estimate?

Here's mine from last year. 2017 S75D.

3rd time I replaced the damn compressor.

View attachment 961005

While I was doing this, I noticed this disclaimer "Labor charges are not based solely on actual service personnel’s time but are aggregate prices for specific services or repairs, which may include flat rates based on industry manuals and vehicle condition".

When I left it at service, I requested that the HEPA and cabin filters be replaced. When service called with the new estimate they recommended not replacing the HEPA stating it is now considered a "lifetime" filter.

We love this car and considering that other than recalls and an animal chew, this is the first repair in nearly 100k miles, it has been one of the best cars I have owned. I haven't tried to fully charge it since these repairs, but earlier this year it charged to 223mi. vs. 237mi. when new.

Copy and paste came out kind of funky, but here it is.

Job Number Description Of Work Amount (USD)

1
Concern: Replace VCM To Upgrade 8GB eMMC
Performed service bulletin, removed and replaced VCM. Test drove to confirm vehicle operation
normal after repairs.
Correction: Replace VCM To Upgrade eMMC (Model S) - Remove and Replace
Parts Replaced or Added
Part Quantity
MSX TEGRA VCM REV- 1.00 D PROV NO FACTORY
MODE (64 GB)- REMAN(2728212-S0-D)
Pay Type: Goodwill - Service
0.00

2
Concern: Customer states: Something Else - AC not working, car not supercharging, power reduced to under 5% while driving
Verified concern, found compressor internally failed. Removed desiccant filter and found metal debris in a/c system. Performed a/c system flush due to compressor failure. Removed and replaced a/c compressor, both condensers, discharge pipe, both expansion valves and charged system to spec. A/C pressures now within spec, vent temp 40deg. Also found center louver failed, removed and replaced center louver, performed calibration. Confirmed all louvers operating normal. Also confirmed both cooling fans operating normal. Test drove to confirm no alerts present and vehicle operation normal after repairs.
Correction: Active Louver - Center (Remove Price Adjustment Subtotal & Replace) - Remove and Replace
289.80 0.00 289.80
6,111.46
1 of 5

Parts Replaced or Added Part Quantity Unit Price Price Adjustment 190.00 0.00 10.70 0.00 Subtotal 190.00 10.70 ASY FR END DUCTING WITH HORNS, MS2(1058073-00-B) FRONT DUCTING GASKET SET(1039348- 00-A) Correction: General Diagnosis 1.00 190.00 2.00 5.35 Correction: A/C Compressor (3rd Generation) (Remove and Replace) - Remove and Replace Parts Replaced or Added Part Quantity Unit Price Price 97.50 Price 315.90 Adjustment 0.00 Adjustment 0.00 Price Adjustment Subtotal 97.50 Subtotal 315.90 Subtotal 560.00 1.78 1.19 A/C COMPRESSOR, ELECTRIC, NO RHVAC(1063369-00-J) O-RING, HNBR 15.22 X 2.48(1024770-00-A) O-RING, HNBR, 12.22MM (ID) X 2.48MM (T)(1010832-00-A) 1.00 560.00 1.00 1.78 1.00 1.19 560.00 0.00 Correction: A/C Refrigerant Flush Due To Compressor Failure (RWD) (NA) Correction: Condenser (Add Refrigerant Part if Needed) (Remove & Replace) - Remove and Replace Price 620.10 Price 585.00 Adjustment 0.00 Adjustment 0.00 Price Adjustment Subtotal 620.10 Subtotal 585.00 Subtotal 450.00 Parts Replaced or Added Part CONDENSER CORE, GAS COOL(6007610-00- B) Quantity Unit Price 1.00 450.00 450.00 0.00 Correction: Condenser - Sub-Cool - RH (Add Refrigerant Part if Needed) (Remove & Replace) - Remove and Replace Price 573.30 Adjustment 0.00 Price Adjustment Subtotal 573.30 Subtotal 450.00 1.19 Parts Replaced or Added Part CONDENSER CORE, SUBCOOL(6007613-00- B) O-RING, HNBR 6.07 X Quantity Unit Price 1.00 450.00 1.00 1.19 450.00 0.00 1.19 0.00 Parts Subtotal 200.70 1.78 0.00 1.19 0.00 Parts Subtotal 562.97 Parts Subtotal 450.00

2 of 5

		2.18(1024772-00-A) Correction: Pipe - High Pressure - A/C Compressor to Condenser (Add Refrigerant Part if Needed) (Remove & Replace) - Remove and Replace Price Adjustment 678.60 0.00 Price Adjustment 80.00 0.00 Subtotal 678.60 Subtotal 80.00 Parts Replaced or Added Part AC LINE, COMPRESSOR DISCHARGE LINE(1069093-00-C) Quantity 1.00 Unit Price 80.00 Correction: TXV Valve Evaporator (Add Refrigerant Part if Needed) (Remove & Replace) - Remove and Replace Parts Replaced or Added Part Quantity VALVE ASY, TXV W/ 1.00 SOL R134A - EVAPORATOR(6008481- 00-B) Correction: TXV Valve - Chiller (Add Refrigerant Part if Needed) (Remove & Replace) - Remove and Replace Parts Replaced or Added Part Quantity EXV(1039040-00-G) 1.00 Total Parts Amount 1,874.86 Total Labor Amount 4,236.60 Unit Price 60.00 Price Adjustment 526.50 0.00 Price Adjustment 60.00 0.00 Subtotal 526.50 Subtotal 60.00 Unit Price 70.00 Price Adjustment 549.90 0.00 Price Adjustment 70.00 0.00 Subtotal 549.90 Subtotal 70.00 Parts Subtotal 451.19 Parts Subtotal 80.00 Parts Subtotal 60.00 Parts Subtotal 70.00 Pay Type: Customer Pay
3	Concern: Check tire pressure and condition Inspected tire tread depth. Automated Tire Pressure Check (No Adjustment Needed). Tread Depth Measure Type mm Tread depth - Record the lowest measurement across all groves Front Driver: 7 Front Passenger: 7 Back Driver: 5 Back Passenger: 5 Tire replacement recommended No Tire rotation recommended	0.00

3 of 5
Service Center hourly rate: USD 165

Total Parts (USD) Total Labor (USD)
Discount
Pre-Tax Amount (USD)
Tax
Total Amount (USD)
Total Paid (USD)
Payment Due (USD)
1,908.86 4,260.00
0.00
6,168.86
175.61
6,344.47
6,344.47
0.00
4
Concern: client is requesting cabin filter and hepa filter Removed and replaced cabin filter.
Correction: Filter - Particulate - 2nd Generation (Remove & Replace) - Remove and Replace
Price
23.40
Adjustment
0.00
Price Adjustment
Subtotal
23.40
Subtotal
34.00
Parts Replaced or Added
Part Quantity
MS2 HVAC CARBON 1.00 FILTER(1072736-00-B)
Total Parts Amount 34.00 Total Labor Amount 23.40
Unit Price
34.00
34.00 0.00
Parts Subtotal 34.00
Pay Type: Customer Pay
57.40

 

[houstonian]

Copy and paste came out kind of funky, but here it is.

Correction: Active Louver - Center (Remove Price Adjustment Subtotal & Replace)

• ASY FR END DUCTING WITH HORNS, MS2(1058073-00-B)
• FRONT DUCTING GASKET SET(1039348- 00-A)

Correction: AC Rebuild

• A/C COMPRESSOR, ELECTRIC, NO RHVAC(1063369-00-J)
• O-RING, HNBR 15.22 X 2.48 (1024770-00-A)
• O-RING, HNBR, 12.22MM (ID) X 2.48MM (T)(1010832-00-A)
• CONDENSER CORE, GAS COOL(6007610-00- B)
• CONDENSER CORE, SUBCOOL(6007613-00- B)
• AC LINE, COMPRESSOR DISCHARGE LINE(1069093-00-C)
• VALVE ASY, TXV W/ 1.00 SOL R134A EVAPORATOR (6008481-00-B)

Thanks - looks like they're doing more than just replacing the compressor here, which may account for the jump in labor costs.

IIRC my S had three louvres zones on the front: left, right, and center and I seem to recall all of them being replaced at some point in time. I don't know if a failure of one of the louvres (the center in your case) cascaded into also causing the HVAC to fail or vice-versa.

Might want to search around TMC for the part numbers referenced in the bid to see if anyone else has any experience with similar repairs.

 

[TacoGuy]

On the contrary, if a job ends up taking 100% longer than the book estimate, are you prepared to pay double?

Book rates may not be perfect but they have benefits to both the shop and the consumer.

Sorry don’t agree. I am because I am aware that the 100% longer scenario is not nearly as frequently as the scenario I cited. Most services over time evolve to have shortcuts and workarounds that avoid going to the book time.

The only thing the book rate does is prevent an argument with the consumer and inflate service margins.

 

[electricar]

Sorry don’t agree. I am because I am aware that the 100% longer scenario is not nearly as frequently as the scenario I cited. Most services over time evolve to have shortcuts and workarounds that avoid going to the book time.

The only thing the book rate does is prevent an argument with the consumer and inflate service margins.

What you are not seeing is that the OEMs do everything they can to reduce warranty costs which includes paying the mechanics as little as possible. They are constantly revising book times down until the mechanics do everything they can to avoid certain repair orders and is the main contributor to the half-assed work done at dealerships. In my experience the work done by a mobile ranger at my house has taken longer than book time but the ranger who has worked on my car suffers from an inability to do crappy work so he will probably move on to greener pastures soon.

 

[ucmndd]

Sorry don’t agree. I am because I am aware that the 100% longer scenario is not nearly as frequently as the scenario I cited. Most services over time evolve to have shortcuts and workarounds that avoid going to the book time.

The only thing the book rate does is prevent an argument with the consumer and inflate service margins.

The great majority of customers prefer a stable estimate that doesn’t change if a bolt gets stuck/stripped or other unforeseen complications arise. If a shop can leverage their experience and expertise to get a job done quicker, that’s kinda what you’re paying them for.

I suppose if you don’t like the up-front estimate you can always go somewhere else.

 

[OrbiterTI4]

On the contrary, if a job ends up taking 100% longer than the book estimate, are you prepared to pay double?

Book rates may not be perfect but they have benefits to both the shop and the consumer.

To an extent, service shops can already do the former by changing or adding to the tasks/jobs in the estimate. I experienced this at a Tesla Service Center.

(anecdotal experience below)
This past February, after taking the Model S into service, I get back and approve in-app the estimate of replacing two failed items, the battery coolant heater and a wheel speed sensor.

Jump ahead two weeks later to the message of work being complete and final invoice ready for payment, and the invoice was $700 higher! Similar to your stuck bolt scenario, the new wheel speed sensor was not working/aligning with the existing wheel hub, so the "job" of replacing the wheel hub was added to the invoice.

I balked and eventually the service rep gave discounts on non-parts-related tasks/line items (the general diagnosis, the electrical isolation procedure) to get a total bill at the estimate I approved, but that only happened because I pushed back. Not sure how often a driver would just take the lumps.

 

[electricar]

Well, that was handled poorly - the service writer should have called before the work was done to explain the situation. This incompetent routine whether caused by poor communication between the mechanic and the service writer, poor communication between the writer and the customer, or just a plain old attempt to jack up the bill leaves the customer ( and maybe the mechanic and/or writer ) pissed off.

 

[TacoGuy]

The great majority of customers prefer a stable estimate that doesn’t change if a bolt gets stuck/stripped or other unforeseen complications arise. If a shop can leverage their experience and expertise to get a job done quicker, that’s kinda what you’re paying them for.

I suppose if you don’t like the up-front estimate you can always go somewhere else.

You are saying that most people prefer to be treated as if they are ignorant to the fact that labor is being over charged by the job, than I suppose yes you are correct.

 

[electricar]

You are saying that most people prefer to be treated as if they are ignorant to the fact that labor is being over charged by the job, then I suppose yes you are correct.

Just as you think that the people who work on your car are being overpaid I am certain that whatever you do for a living can be accomplished by someone else for less than you are being paid.

 

[houstonian]

You are saying that most people prefer to be treated as if they are ignorant to the fact that labor is being over charged by the job, than I suppose yes you are correct.

@TacoGuy - think this is a yes/no here.

Generally most people like certainty, over variability and a known over an unknown.

Consider the concept of Risk Aversion, the Ellsberg Paradox, Allais Paradox, and/or any other data showing how, on average, we'll pay a premium (or accept a reduction in payment) to reduce uncertainty.

There's something to be said for provider X guaranteeing service/goods at price $Y with an embedded premium markup of $Z as risk of variance - and reward for efficiency - accrue to the service offer and the buyer knows the max cost/risk s/he'll have to accept.

This is not to give TSLA carte blanche to markup to the moon, but rather offer up a viewpoint where one may wish to pay a premium in return for a guaranteed price.

 

[Doanster1]

You are saying that most people prefer to be treated as if they are ignorant to the fact that labor is being over charged by the job, than I suppose yes you are correct.

@houstonian ’s eloquent reply is way over my head so I’m gonna keep it simple. This is what’s known as an Outcome-Based contract. You are quoted and pay a set amount for a desired outcome. They could put one person on it or ten. It’s a don’t care. They deliver the outcome in (generally) the specified amount of time and you pay to complete the contract.

Suppose the SC, dealerships, etc. did charge by the actual time spent, would you really trust them when presented with the invoice or would you question whether they actually spent 93mins performing the service you requested? Unless you’re a Master Tech, how would you know how long it “should” take to replace an A/C condenser? What’s your threshold for “Yeah, that’s sounds about right. I’ll pay now.” vs “Ummm, there’s no way you spent that much time. I could’ve done it in under an hour. Not paying. Get me the service manager.”?

 

[TacoGuy]

@TacoGuy - think this is a yes/no here.

Generally most people like certainty, over variability and a known over an unknown.

Consider the concept of Risk Aversion, the Ellsberg Paradox, Allais Paradox, and/or any other data showing how, on average, we'll pay a premium (or accept a reduction in payment) to reduce uncertainty.

There's something to be said for provider X guaranteeing service/goods at price $Y with an embedded premium markup of $Z as risk of variance - and reward for efficiency - accrue to the service offer and the buyer knows the max cost/risk s/he'll have to accept.

This is not to give TSLA carte blanche to markup to the moon, but rather offer up a viewpoint where one may wish to pay a premium in return for a guaranteed price.

I understand the perspective. I’m not agreed with the practice.

And to be clear I have not expressed opinion about the wage people earn by my objecting to labor rate x book hours. The service department at Tesla or any traditional dealer is profiting. 200-300 per hour to do a job inflated by 15-20% time in the book is overcharging. Anyone with legacy dealer knowledge will tell you service department is a money maker. Jobs cost 10-15x the cost of parts. The mark up isn’t passed on to the people doing the work. The mark up is a profit for the service provider.

We can agree that we do not agree. And as above poster has explained some people like certainty. Others roll the dice.