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CCS Retrofit Availability (2023)

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unless they keep something like the current Chedemo/Tesla NACS connector that EVgo currently uses that do not require CCS to be enabled. I have used the chargers with those connectors several times and have always worked but max is 50Kw.
That 50 kW limit is pretty limiting by today's standards. A more likely scenario that would not require CCS support is that a charging network could negotiate with Tesla to license or open the Supercharger communications protocols. I'm not saying I think this is likely in the sense of >50% chance of it happening, but it is at least theoretically possible. Keeping CCS as the communications protocol over NACS would be easier for charging networks to implement, though, and as non-CCS-enabled Teslas become a smaller and smaller percentage of Teslas on the road, using CCS for communications will have fewer and fewer drawbacks.
 
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Wait! That’s crazy! 😳 I was not expecting that. So I still need to install the retrofit in my Model 3! Damn it!
Probably, but not with certainty. I know of no technical reason why Tesla could not open up their proprietary communications protocols for third-party DC fast charging manufacturers to use, or to license it to specific networks. I've heard no rumors that Tesla might be considering doing so, though; and as more Teslas with CCS protocol support hit the roads, there will be less and less motivation for those third-party networks to make a fuss over the issue. Thus, it may not happen. Then too, I wasn't expecting the Ford/Tesla announcement until it happened, either. Who knows what discussions might be occurring behind the scenes?

Personally, I plan on getting the CCS retrofit as soon as it becomes available, unless maybe I hear that Tesla is opening or licensing those protocols and that major networks plan to implement it. Having the adapter will be helpful as an emergency backup, and will give access to more stations even if other networks implement Tesla's protocols -- older stations or stations on obscure networks that don't bother to implement Tesla's protocols.

If you don't want to pay for the CCS retrofit, I expect that used Setec CCS1-to-Tesla adapters will be getting very cheap pretty soon.
 
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I’m confused.
Probably, but not with certainty. I know of no technical reason why Tesla could not open up their proprietary communications protocols for third-party DC fast charging manufacturers to use, or to license it to specific networks. I've heard no rumors that Tesla might be considering doing so, though; and as more Teslas with CCS protocol support hit the roads, there will be less and less motivation for those third-party networks to make a fuss over the issue. Thus, it may not happen. Then too, I wasn't expecting the Ford/Tesla announcement until it happened, either. Who knows what discussions might be occurring behind the scenes?

Personally, I plan on getting the CCS retrofit as soon as it becomes available, unless maybe I hear that Tesla is opening or licensing those protocols and that major networks plan to implement it. Having the adapter will be helpful as an emergency backup, and will give access to more stations even if other networks implement Tesla's protocols -- older stations or stations on obscure networks that don't bother to implement Tesla's protocols.

If you don't want to pay for the CCS retrofit, I expect that used Setec CCS1-to-Tesla adapters will be getting very cheap pretty soon.
I’m confused. I thought that Tesla opened their NACS standard to everyone when they made the announcement. But it sounds like you’re saying they did not.
 
I’m confused. I thought that Tesla opened their NACS standard to everyone when they made the announcement. But it sounds like you’re saying they did not.
NACS is primarily a hardware specification, although as @smogne41 says, it implies (or maybe states outright, but my recollection is that it's a bit vague) that the CCS protocols (over PLC) should be used for communication, whereas Tesla uses a proprietary protocol over CAN bus. (Note that there are two levels of protocols in both cases: The CCS protocol is run over PLC, and Tesla's protocols are run over CAN bus. Think of PLC vs. CAN bus as being akin to written vs. spoken language medium, and CCS vs. Tesla's protocols being two different languages. That's an imperfect analogy, as all are, but it's a start.) This is probably at least part of the reason why Tesla's agreements with Ford and GM open "over 12,000" Supercharger stalls to these automakers, whereas the US DOE estimates that Tesla has 21,182 Supercharger stalls; Tesla is opening only V3 Superchargers, which have the hardware and software to communicate via the CCS protocols that Ford and GM cars can already use, whereas older V2 Superchargers (presumably) lack that capability.

From a technical perspective, there's no reason that a third-party charging equipment provider couldn't implement Tesla's own CAN bus-based protocol over the NACS plug. (Some people would say it's no longer NACS if that was done, but I don't want to argue that semantic point.) Many of these charging stations already support the low-level CAN bus protocol, since CHAdeMO also uses CAN bus, although I don't know if such charging stations are designed to support both CAN bus and PLC over the same cables. Assuming that's not an issue, the problem with doing this is that Tesla has not, to the best of my knowledge, opened the details of how their CAN bus communications work. If Tesla and third-party charging networks wanted to cooperate, though, they could do so. Whether it would be worth the effort is debatable, with large chunks of uncertainty thrown in for a public debate, since we in the general public don't know enough about Tesla's protocol, and detailed knowledge of DC fast charger design is pretty esoteric, too.

Note that the language used (CAN bus/Tesla and PLC/CCS protocol) was developed along with the connector type (NACS and CCS1), but they aren't really wed to them. Both NACS and CCS1 have five physical pins. (At least, on the fast charger side; on the car side, CCS1 has seven pins, two of which are not used for DC fast charging.) It's possible to run the CCS protocol over a NACS plug, despite the fact that the CCS protocol was intended to be run over a CCS1 or CCS2 plug. That's what Tesla's CCS1-to-NACS adapter does; it just connects the CCS1 pins to their NACS equivalents. That's also why older Teslas can't use this adapter without a controller update; earlier Teslas couldn't use PLC over their charge ports because they lacked the right chips to do so. Newer Teslas, or those with the CCS upgrade hardware, can use either CAN bus or PLC over their charge ports. The fact that the adapter works, though, demonstrates that it would be fairly straightforward for third-party charging providers to fit NACS plugs on their charging stations and charge Teslas that are CCS-aware; they just need to run the CCS protocol over the NACS plug, as in fact the NACS specification suggests. Because this is the path that we know poses no significant technical or legal challenges, it's what most people are assuming will happen, if and when third-party charging providers install NACS plugs.
 
NACS is primarily a hardware specification, although as @smogne41 says, it implies (or maybe states outright, but my recollection is that it's a bit vague) that the CCS protocols (over PLC) should be used for communication, whereas Tesla uses a proprietary protocol over CAN bus. (Note that there are two levels of protocols in both cases: The CCS protocol is run over PLC, and Tesla's protocols are run over CAN bus. Think of PLC vs. CAN bus as being akin to written vs. spoken language medium, and CCS vs. Tesla's protocols being two different languages. That's an imperfect analogy, as all are, but it's a start.) This is probably at least part of the reason why Tesla's agreements with Ford and GM open "over 12,000" Supercharger stalls to these automakers, whereas the US DOE estimates that Tesla has 21,182 Supercharger stalls; Tesla is opening only V3 Superchargers, which have the hardware and software to communicate via the CCS protocols that Ford and GM cars can already use, whereas older V2 Superchargers (presumably) lack that capability.

From a technical perspective, there's no reason that a third-party charging equipment provider couldn't implement Tesla's own CAN bus-based protocol over the NACS plug. (Some people would say it's no longer NACS if that was done, but I don't want to argue that semantic point.) Many of these charging stations already support the low-level CAN bus protocol, since CHAdeMO also uses CAN bus, although I don't know if such charging stations are designed to support both CAN bus and PLC over the same cables. Assuming that's not an issue, the problem with doing this is that Tesla has not, to the best of my knowledge, opened the details of how their CAN bus communications work. If Tesla and third-party charging networks wanted to cooperate, though, they could do so. Whether it would be worth the effort is debatable, with large chunks of uncertainty thrown in for a public debate, since we in the general public don't know enough about Tesla's protocol, and detailed knowledge of DC fast charger design is pretty esoteric, too.

Note that the language used (CAN bus/Tesla and PLC/CCS protocol) was developed along with the connector type (NACS and CCS1), but they aren't really wed to them. Both NACS and CCS1 have five physical pins. (At least, on the fast charger side; on the car side, CCS1 has seven pins, two of which are not used for DC fast charging.) It's possible to run the CCS protocol over a NACS plug, despite the fact that the CCS protocol was intended to be run over a CCS1 or CCS2 plug. That's what Tesla's CCS1-to-NACS adapter does; it just connects the CCS1 pins to their NACS equivalents. That's also why older Teslas can't use this adapter without a controller update; earlier Teslas couldn't use PLC over their charge ports because they lacked the right chips to do so. Newer Teslas, or those with the CCS upgrade hardware, can use either CAN bus or PLC over their charge ports. The fact that the adapter works, though, demonstrates that it would be fairly straightforward for third-party charging providers to fit NACS plugs on their charging stations and charge Teslas that are CCS-aware; they just need to run the CCS protocol over the NACS plug, as in fact the NACS specification suggests. Because this is the path that we know poses no significant technical or legal challenges, it's what most people are assuming will happen, if and when third-party charging providers install NACS plugs.
Wow! That’s heavy stuff. 😂
So what about L2 chargers that have the J1772 plug. What protocol do they use? I can use those chargers just fine with an adapter for my Model 3.
 
So what about L2 chargers that have the J1772 plug. What protocol do they use? I can use those chargers just fine with an adapter for my Model 3.
The situation is analogous, but the protocols are much simpler. J1772 has its own associated communications protocol, and Tesla has theirs. Both Tesla cars and Tesla's EVSEs (the Mobile Connector and the Wall Connector) understand both protocols, but most (all, AFAIK) other vehicles and EVSEs understand only the J1772 protocol. Thus, you can plug a Tesla into a J1772 EVSE (via the adapter) and it'll charge with no problems; and you can usually plug a J1772 vehicle into a Tesla EVSE (via an adapter) and it will charge. The latter usually incurs a delay, though, since the Tesla EVSE will start out trying to use the Tesla protocol, and will switch to J1772 only after it times out. I've heard stories of some J1772 vehicles not working at all, or requiring jumping through some hoops, like powering the car on and then off again after plugging in. Also, I believe that some or all versions of the Wall Connector can be configured to not use the J1772 protocol, so if you wanted to make a public charger available only to Teslas, you could do so. Most people don't bother to do this for their home Wall Connectors, of course. I don't know how common it is at hotels and whatnot that have Wall Connectors, but it seems to me that doing so might annoy paying customers.

I expect that, once Ford and GM begin delivering NACS-equipped EVs, if not before, non-Tesla Level 1 and Level 2 EVSEs with the NACS plug will start to appear. I'd expect them to use the J1772 protocol, but I can't be certain of that.
 
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The situation is analogous, but the protocols are much simpler. J1772 has its own associated communications protocol, and Tesla has theirs. Both Tesla cars and Tesla's EVSEs (the Mobile Connector and the Wall Connector) understand both protocols, but most (all, AFAIK) other vehicles and EVSEs understand only the J1772 protocol. Thus, you can plug a Tesla into a J1772 EVSE (via the adapter) and it'll charge with no problems; and you can usually plug a J1772 vehicle into a Tesla EVSE (via an adapter) and it will charge. The latter usually incurs a delay, though, since the Tesla EVSE will start out trying to use the Tesla protocol, and will switch to J1772 only after it times out. I've heard stories of some J1772 vehicles not working at all, or requiring jumping through some hoops, like powering the car on and then off again after plugging in. Also, I believe that some or all versions of the Wall Connector can be configured to not use the J1772 protocol, so if you wanted to make a public charger available only to Teslas, you could do so. Most people don't bother to do this for their home Wall Connectors, of course. I don't know how common it is at hotels and whatnot that have Wall Connectors, but it seems to me that doing so might annoy paying customers.

I expect that, once Ford and GM begin delivering NACS-equipped EVs, if not before, non-Tesla Level 1 and Level 2 EVSEs with the NACS plug will start to appear. I'd expect them to use the J1772 protocol, but I can't be certain of that.
The NACS document specifies CCS communication for DC fast charging and specifically J1772 for AC charging. Tesla was actually being smart about this, in minimizing/eliminating the (harder) electrical challenges for 3rd party charger manufactures so they they should be able to (probably) almost entirely reuse the electronics they have already developed and for the most part just change the connector on the end of the cable. I am not sure if there might be some other small changes with the connector locking and the port unlock button or not, but I suspect in most cases changing product lines (for both AC and DC chargers) over to NACS should be extremely straightforward and even retrofitting existing stations will probably be easy-ish.

Yes, the Tesla proprietary CANbus charging communications protocol has not been released, and is explicitly not part of NACS. Kind of unfortunate since it is superior (because it is far simpler than CCS), but I can understand the motivation of making NACS more palatable to the rest of the industry by using a standard they were already on and invested in (and Tesla is legally required to use CCS in most other markets anyway so they have all the tools for this in-house already). And this also does not leave existing CCS cars high and dry (with a simple pass-through adapter).
 
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Yes, the Tesla proprietary CANbus charging communications protocol has not been released, and is explicitly not part of NACS. Kind of unfortunate since it is superior (because it is far simpler than CCS), but I can understand the motivation of making NACS more palatable to the rest of the industry by using a standard they were already on and invested in
I suspect there's more to it than that. Tesla could easily have included their communications protocols as part of NACS (or in a separate document) and included language in the NACS specification that explicitly says NACS could use either Tesla's protocols or the J1772 and CCS protocols. This would have satisfied the desire to make NACS more palatable while also making it possible for a company that wanted to go the extra mile to support older non-CCS-enabled Teslas to do so. I can think of many reasons why Tesla might want to keep their protocols proprietary (potential profit from licensing them in the future; plans to completely switch from their protocols to J1772/CCS in the future; holding the Tesla protocols back because they might provide a competitive edge in the future; an excuse to not open V2 Superchargers, so as to give Teslas access to more Superchargers under deals like those with Ford and GM; known serious security flaws that they're unwisely trying to protect through obscurity; etc.). I don't see any evidence to support any one of these reasons over the others, although I think Tesla is too security-savvy to be playing the security-through-obscurity game. If we do hear of a licensing deal between Tesla and one or more third-party charging networks to use Tesla's protocols, though, then that could point to future licensing as the reason for holding back their communications protocols. I'm not saying I think that's likely, though. As with so much in this area, I'm acutely aware of how much the general public does not know about what's going on behind closed doors.
 
I expect that, once Ford and GM begin delivering NACS-equipped EVs, if not before, non-Tesla Level 1 and Level 2 EVSEs with the NACS plug will start to appear. I'd expect them to use the J1772 protocol, but I can't be certain of that.
I'm not certain that this company is already providing EVSEs with NACS. The photos seem to show it but I can't find any other references to using the NACS plug. Anyway:
EV Chargers
 
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I'm not certain that this company is already providing EVSEs with NACS. The photos seem to show it but I can't find any other references to using the NACS plug. Anyway:
EV Chargers
Nice find! Today saw a flood of announcements from EV charging companies about NACS support. Here's one bit from ChargePoint, as quoted in an article by Electrek:
ChargePoint said:
ChargePoint’s Express 250 (DC), Express Plus (DC), CPF50 (AC) CP6000 (AC), and the award-winning Home Flex (AC) all offer modular connectors for both customer preference and serviceability. ChargePoint will soon be offering a NACS connector option for all of these products, with cost-effective field upgrades available for chargers that are already in service.
So that's confirmation that one of the bigger players in the EVSE field will soon be offering a NACS connector for its home and commercial EVSEs. Some other companies mentioned in the article also sell Level 2 EVSEs, but ChargePoint's statement was most explicit that they'd be providing NACS plugs on their Level 2 EVSEs, as well as on their DC fast chargers. Most of the emphasis in the articles I've been reading is on DC fast chargers, since NACS support is more important for them -- J1772-to-NACS adapters are just too cheap and easy to use to be as big of a hassle as adapters on DC fast chargers.
 
Is anyone not considering getting the retrofit after ford and GMs announcements?
I’m still getting the CCS retrofit on my 2017 S100D next week. I’ll still keep my CHAdeMO adapter and Mobile Connector kit with extensive suite of outlet connectors in the frunk after getting the CCS adapter. Also the J1772 adapter in the glove box.

There are scenarios where the only convenient, accessible or working charge power may not have an NACS connector.
 
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can think of many reasons why Tesla might want to keep their protocols proprietary

Tesla's motivation might just be as simple as trying to push the industry towards the simplest solution in the future. Supporting both Tesla protocol and CCS is a lot of software development, testing, and most important complexity that can bring bugs. And building reliable chargers and charging networks has already clearly been proven to be challenging.

As Elon says the best part is no part, or in this case supporting 1 protocol is significantly better than supporting 2.

As a side note: I'm seeing a lot of people on various forums who very insistently believe older non-CCS Tesla's are just going to work on all NACS chargers... I see bad surprises coming for some people... Won't it be fun when on Plugshare you have to check if an NACS charger supports Tesla protocol, CCS, or both?

Side note 2: the EVgo stations with Chadmo adapters... those will not work with GM, Rivian, Ford and Volvos, right? That'll be a nice surprise for somebody...
 
Tesla's motivation might just be as simple as trying to push the industry towards the simplest solution in the future. Supporting both Tesla protocol and CCS is a lot of software development, testing, and most important complexity that can bring bugs. And building reliable chargers and charging networks has already clearly been proven to be challenging.
It makes sense. All of the charging hardware vendors already support the CCS protocol, so they need to change almost nothing to support NACS. No reason for them to implement another protocol and introduce more incompatibilities.

Won't it be fun when on Plugshare you have to check if an NACS charger supports Tesla protocol, CCS, or both?

No need to look. If it is a Tesla Supercharger it supports the Tesla protocol as well as CCS. If it isn't a Tesla site it only supports CCS. Easy, peasy.

Side note 2: the EVgo stations with Chadmo adapters... those will not work with GM, Rivian, Ford and Volvos, right? That'll be a nice surprise for somebody...

You are probably correct, but I suspect EVgo will remove those adapters before non-Tesla vehicles with NACS inlets start shipping in 2025.
 
No need to look. If it is a Tesla Supercharger it supports the Tesla protocol as well as CCS. If it isn't a Tesla site it only supports CCS. Easy, peasy.

Well, except any of those EVGo stations with built in Chademo adapters that might still be around... Maybe they'll all get removed but if they're not broken is EVGo really going to proactively remove them? They'd still be useful for old Teslas.

And who knows maybe Chargepoint makes a deal with Tesla to support Tesla protocol on some new chargers. That's not impossible!