Charging Concerns; Challenging Townhome Situation

[qdeathstar]

i’m looking at your panel. i think you would have no issue installing a 30 amp circuit for the EV charger. The 240v breakers in there appear to be your air handler and air conditioning compressor. Even though the air handler says 20 amps, it probably only draws 1-2 amps since all it is doing is running a fan to pull air through coils. The AC compressor probably draws around 20 amps when it running worst case, possibly less. You can find out exactly by looking for the FLA marking on the AC. The rest of those circuits probably draw around 20 amps on each phase.

That leaves you with about 20 amps of head room on your service, even with the AC running. The 30 amp circuit will draw around 24 amps... So a little tight, but doable.

Since bryant breakers are no longer manufactured you can get a breaker like this that will fit in your panel.

https://www.amazon.com/Cutler-Hammer-BQ230220-Circuit-Breaker/dp/B00N4Q6VQE


Then it’s just a matter of getting from A to B.

 

[qdeathstar]

It just takes the 2 HOT wires (ignores the neutral) and ground, and provide it to you in 1 outlet. It is no different than running 3 wires from the panel (black/red/ground) to a new receptacle.

The $200+ unit also tests the lines to make sure it's safe before turning green - for you to use. Nothing magical happening in the background.

That has nothing to do with UL compliance. The more expensive model might be compliant however. I didn’t see that one, The other issue is says it needs non-gfci outlets. Garage outlets are required to be gfci protected.. Also, you have to make sure the outlets are not only on dedicated circuits, but also on different phases.

 

[qdeathstar]

There is no way a device which has a 110v receptacle outputting 240v is compliant, sticker warning label or not. I don’t understand why they didn’t just use a 240v receptacle...

 

[eevee-fan]

View attachment 503007


There is no way a device which has a 110v receptacle outputting 240v is compliant, sticker warning label or not. I don’t understand why they didn’t just use a 240v receptacle...

Hm... I agree. This particular adapter may not work with Tesla EVSE that determines voltage/amperage by the plug. You would have to add another adapter to convert this to at least a NEMA 6-20 receptacle.

But the basis of how the power is joined is still correct. It just picks the 3 wires that you need to make a 240v line. Not much different that running a new line.

 

[eprosenx]

Hm... I agree. This particular adapter may not work with Tesla EVSE that determines voltage/amperage by the plug. You would have to add another adapter to convert this to at least a NEMA 6-20 receptacle.

But the basis of how the power is joined is still correct. It just picks the 3 wires that you need to make a 240v line. Not much different that running a new line.

Barring comment on that device that was posted (that is terrifying!!!) - it would work. Only the amperage is determined by the adapter on the UMC. Voltage can be anything in the cars range. It just checks the voltage when first plugged in and compares it to the voltage when under load to make sure it does not drop too much.

And incidentally, I think the Quick220 has safety features built in where it does not engage the output until it detects voltage on both of the 120v inputs. This keeps dangerous backfeed conditions from happening when you only have one 120v receptacle plugged in.

(I am not a fan of the quick 220 either for the most part... I would rather invest the money in a solid hard wired solution than a hack - but it has its place in temporary situations or when there are just no other options... - with modern afci angle gfci circuits though you can’t use it)

 

[Spacep0d]

What's your peak usage? 10KW?

Average Daily Net Usage : 20 kWh

 

[Spacep0d]

Barring comment on that device that was posted (that is terrifying!!!) - it would work. Only the amperage is determined by the adapter on the UMC. Voltage can be anything in the cars range. It just checks the voltage when first plugged in and compares it to the voltage when under load to make sure it does not drop too much.

And incidentally, I think the Quick220 has safety features built in where it does not engage the output until it detects voltage on both of the 120v inputs. This keeps dangerous backfeed conditions from happening when you only have one 120v receptacle plugged in.

(I am not a fan of the quick 220 either for the most part... I would rather invest the money in a solid hard wired solution than a hack - but it has its place in temporary situations or when there are just no other options... - with modern afci angle gfci circuits though you can’t use it)

I am glad that these devices exist, but I'm going to try a more robust solution in the meantime, even if it means getting the HOA to agree to a DCC-10 if need or want faster charging.

 

[eprosenx]

i’m looking at your panel. i think you would have no issue installing a 30 amp circuit for the EV charger. The 240v breakers in there appear to be your air handler and air conditioning compressor. Even though the air handler says 20 amps, it probably only draws 1-2 amps since all it is doing is running a fan to pull air through coils. The AC compressor probably draws around 20 amps when it running worst case, possibly less. You can find out exactly by looking for the FLA marking on the AC. The rest of those circuits probably draw around 20 amps on each phase.

That leaves you with about 20 amps of head room on your service, even with the AC running. The 30 amp circuit will draw around 24 amps... So a little tight, but doable.

Since bryant breakers are no longer manufactured you can get a breaker like this that will fit in your panel.

https://www.amazon.com/Cutler-Hammer-BQ230220-Circuit-Breaker/dp/B00N4Q6VQE


Then it’s just a matter of getting from A to B.

So you are probably right that the house does not generally draw that much energy, but the code compliant correct way to do this calculation is by the “load calculation” formulas listed in the NEC. While they may not seem to make a ton of sense sometimes, it is what we have to go by.

Even if you do go by the process you describe (which I do generally agree with your thesis), the EV needs to be treated as a continuous load (since it really is by definition- especially on slower charging circuits since it must charge for much longer) and so a 24a charge rate needs 30a of total main circuit capacity.

I should also note that the 240v circuit in the upper right I am pretty sure is a “multi wire branch circuit” (shared neutral) between the garbage disposal and the dishwasher per the panel schedule. I was wondering about the HVAC air handler. I think it is probably covered by the 30a 240v circuit *or* it is a mis-labeled convenience outlets circuit at 15a 120v.

And I wanted to make clear here that breaker options for this panel are luckily plentiful. Westinghouse, Challenger, and Bryant panels all come from the same lineage that all got bought up by Eaton. You are allowed to use the Eaton BR style breakers (including tandems and quad tandems as indicated on the panel). Eaton actually has the best catalog of options of any panel manufacturer when it comes to tandems, so that is the good news! All the breaker positions in this panel are allowed to have tandems in them.

 

[eprosenx]

I am glad that these devices exist, but I'm going to try a more robust solution in the meantime, even if it means getting the HOA to agree to a DCC-10 if need or want faster charging.

Question: Why would you need HOA approval to install a DCC-10? If you were able to do it without having to do any work outside the confines of your unit then I would just do it without asking... The trick becomes if you have to install exterior wiring, digging, etc... (as I think you said you would have to)

 

[Zaxxon]

I don't have much in the way of useful advice to add, but wanted to jump in and say kudos to you for being persistent in finding a way to make a bum situation work for you.

Also, a full 60A panel out of the gate, built in 1990? Ludicrous.

On a positive note, your work from home situation and proximity to a Supercharger mean that even at 120V you'll be ok.

I would hope that the HOA will be open to some form of public EVSE on the grounds somewhere. Once you convey how terrible your electrical setup is for EVs, which presumably applies to all the other units the HOA is looking out for, you'd think they could be made to see the light--that as EVs grow in popularity, it's in the HOA's interest to ensure that the homes in their purview are able to effectively service EVs.

 

[eevee-fan]

I am glad that these devices exist, but I'm going to try a more robust solution in the meantime, even if it means getting the HOA to agree to a DCC-10 if need or want faster charging.

Would be awesome if you can get HOA to get a DCFC installed. For balance between speed and demand charge, perhaps a 25KW model would do. HOA can be incentivized by charging a moderate fee for usage by non HOA members and then a discount card for reasonable fees when used by HOA members. States/utility companies may have rebates to pay for part of the equipment and installation. Precedence of this would be renting out the common area to residents... little revenue for the HOA and a service to the residents.

The L2 chargers deployed at apts and condos tend to become permanent parking spots for ONE PHEV/EV owner, so I would recommend against that.

Either case, there needs to be an idle fee for the EVs that get left plugged in, at least between 6am and 10pm. Not sure if that can be programmed into the chargers.

 

[qdeathstar]

So you are probably right that the house does not generally draw that much energy, but the code compliant correct way to do this calculation is by the “load calculation” formulas listed in the NEC. While they may not seem to make a ton of sense sometimes, it is what we have to go by.

yeah, it’s tight but it looks OK.

Depending on the wire size and type of over current device used at the disconnect, eg, if it a fuse, you may not need to multiple the continuous amperage by 1.25 for the service over current device.

 

[qdeathstar]

also, can you show us a picture of the disconnecting means, should be near the meter.

 

[Spacep0d]

I don't have much in the way of useful advice to add, but wanted to jump in and say kudos to you for being persistent in finding a way to make a bum situation work for you.

Also, a full 60A panel out of the gate, built in 1990? Ludicrous.

On a positive note, your work from home situation and proximity to a Supercharger mean that even at 120V you'll be ok.

I would hope that the HOA will be open to some form of public EVSE on the grounds somewhere. Once you convey how terrible your electrical setup is for EVs, which presumably applies to all the other units the HOA is looking out for, you'd think they could be made to see the light--that as EVs grow in popularity, it's in the HOA's interest to ensure that the homes in their purview are able to effectively service EVs.

Thanks for the kudos! Yeah it's been a slog going through various electricians and getting advice here and formerly, at the LEAF forum when I owned a LEAF. I sold the LEAF before the HOV eligibility got too long in the tooth, and I needed more range and really I wanted a Model 3 anyway. So, I stopped pursuing it for a while. Since I'm planning on a Model 3 purchase in February sometime, I'd like to get the charging situation sorted now.

I have an electrician coming out tomorrow who is local and highly-rated on Yelp, so I'm hoping for the best. I'm going to relay (puntastic) as many of the best ideas from this thread as I can. I'm determined and willing to pay for the upgrade; I just need an electrician who's willing to say 'challenge accepted'.

True though, my situation now is different than when I had the LEAF. I'm working from home primarily (occasional face-to-face meetings) and the Supercharger is very close. If I had to I could walk there. Long walk, short drive.

 

[Spacep0d]

Would be awesome if you can get HOA to get a DCFC installed. For balance between speed and demand charge, perhaps a 25KW model would do. HOA can be incentivized by charging a moderate fee for usage by non HOA members and then a discount card for reasonable fees when used by HOA members. States/utility companies may have rebates to pay for part of the equipment and installation. Precedence of this would be renting out the common area to residents... little revenue for the HOA and a service to the residents.

The L2 chargers deployed at apts and condos tend to become permanent parking spots for ONE PHEV/EV owner, so I would recommend against that.

Either case, there needs to be an idle fee for the EVs that get left plugged in, at least between 6am and 10pm. Not sure if that can be programmed into the chargers.

The first tack I would take here is to get the HOA to work with my on my personal charging solution in my own enclosed garage, or at least not stop me from initiating the work. The biggest obstacle is trenching work to get from the outside box to my garage, which is not adjacent to the box but one unit removed. So, at every turn there are challenges. If I aggressively pursue this further, I think I can make something happen.

I've already written a veritable TED talk on the subject of EV-charging, future-proofing, improving value for homeowners and attracting EV-owning renters (where applicable), and everything else I could think of. I have a good relationship with the head of the HOA, but like I said it's one of many things they're thinking about and boy are they slooo owww to move. I will have to crack the whip the whole time and they could just ignore me...until I show up at meetings and start rallying the troops (homeowners) that way.

I'm going after the low-hanging fruit first.

 

[PianoAl]

Yes, that labeling is as bad as the panel box is teeny. Not only that, the person who wrote on there couldn't even stay within the allotted space. I really want to re-label that once I know what everything is, but with a fine-tipped Sharpie and the slightest bit of care.

Better solution: Put the info into the computer, print it out, and put the output on a clipboard near the breaker box (and yes, we do have an airlock):

 

[PianoAl]

Since I'm planning on a Model 3 purchase in February sometime, I'd like to get the charging situation sorted now.

My shocking (hey, you started it!) suggestion is to get the car first. You may have some resistance to that idea, but it will allow you to test the charging while the electrician is still there, and avoid having him charge you for an additional visit if something doesn't work.

 

[Spacep0d]

Better solution: Put the info into the computer, print it out, and put the output on a clipboard near the breaker box (and yes, we do have an airlock):

View attachment 503141

Definitely a good idea, coz that writing is like trying to decipher ancient hieroglyphs....from 1990 and a rinky-dink electrical setup!

And WHOA you have an airlock? Are you in a satellite, neighbors with the I.S.S. perchance?

 

[Spacep0d]

My shocking (hey, you started it!) suggestion is to get the car first. You may have some resistance to that idea, but it will allow you to test the charging while the electrician is still there, and avoid having him charge you for an additional visit if something doesn't work.

Haha, puntastic. Well, it looks like I will have to get the car first. The electrician just left (maybe the 6th one I've had out) and he really tried to get something to work but he's saying there's no way to do it that would be worth it. Getting from panel to garage is already a feat, and then my neighbor's stairwell is nested behind walls in my garage so drilling in to that to run conduit is....problematic. We checked all the breakers and pretty much everything we could use is shared. The most I'd get for all this work is 220v @15 amps but it would cost thousands to make it happen, with patching, painting, etc.

So, the quick 220 may be my only option, or a DCC-10 with HOA cooperation. Honestly all of this makes me just want to sell the place and move. The market is good for selling, though that means it's bad for buying but yeah we could move if we had to. Might seriously consider that, and I'd prefer a single family home anyway with an extra room (gym, utility area).

Looks like I'm going to be trickle-charging and using the Superchargers here and there. Thankfully I'm working from home for the foreseeable future so that might be okay for now...or until we want a second EV.

 

[jjrandorin]

Makes sense. Learn something new every day! Thanks.

I just learned about this during my recent powerwall install. You basically end up with a brand new load center, even if you are doing whole home backup. My new load center (breaker box) had several circuits paired together that were not paired before (connected with bars), and when I asked the tesla electrician, he explained to me about the "sharing a neutral" thing.

I think he said that became code in 2013 or 2014 but I dont remember the exact year he mentioned, so sorry if I am getting the year wrong on it. My house was built in 2006, so was not subject to that code of "sharing a neutral, connected together at the breaker" but of course the powerwall is installed using codes now, not codes then.