Checked Alignment: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

[DIL]

I see your delivery date was yesterday. Did you get the impression they actually checked it? I might do the same.



Thanks for the suggestion. From the reviews, it sounds like it's run by a stubborn older gentleman who is not afraid to tell you you're wrong, just like the place I used to go in Ohio :biggrin:. I'll certainly check it out, it's just down the road from me.

I would absolutely demand a alignment check before accepting the car. It will alleviate any worries or concerns right off the bat and you can get on with enjoying the car. Also signals to Tesla that new owners are painfully aware of this potential issue.

 

[FlasherZ]

No offense was meant to you or your car by this comment. :smile:

No offense taken.

Read that, but it didn't make sense. The alignment computer tells the operator to turn the wheel lock to lock and then to center and takes the reading - to prevent exactly this. You pulled onto the alignment rack, the guy attached the harness and just took the measurement? And as far as the alignment machine being out of calibration, that's a lot out of calibration.

The machine didn't ask for lock-to-lock, it simply asks you to center the steering wheel.

We're all pretty sensitive to toe out issues now... just trying to be helpful...

I appreciate the advice, just letting you know what I had done. The service center is doing their own full alignment check and report for me today, we'll see what they come up with.

The bottom line for me, I think, is that I'm SOL without some suspension parts changes. I was hoping for some toe out so we could say "definitely the problem" and I could come back in parity with those who are getting 15k+ miles. Unfortunately, looks like we're going to need some other solutions here.

 

[FlasherZ]

Service center measured the following:

The case is now with the appropriate folks in Palo Alto & Fremont to figure out what will be done.

As you can see, left rear camber is nearly -2 degrees (1 deg 55 min), and right rear is -2.65 degrees or so (2 deg 39 min). Their measurement of total toe is a little greater than mine, but all within reasonable expectations (no significant toe out).
Tires are 5/32" in the center, 4/32" on the outside.

 

[hoopty_yo]

Wow, that degrees/minutes thing is hurting my head. So used to 100ths of degrees; 60ths just don't compute. Like mixing decimals and fractions in my brain. :crying: Were the tires measured on both inside and outside edges?

 

[FlasherZ]

Wow, that degrees/minutes thing is hurting my head. So used to 100ths of degrees; 60ths just don't compute. Like mixing decimals and fractions in my brain. :crying: Were the tires measured on both inside and outside edges?

Yes, they have a photo of the tire wear... here:

I want to clarify something vs. what was said above, these tires started their life on the front for 5,000 miles or so, and had good tread and completely even wear when they were rotated to the back at the beginning of August. The wear you see on the insides was purely due to the last 4,000 miles spent on the rears.

 

[lolachampcar]

Now those are some throughly unattractive tires.

 

[100thMonkey]

here are my numbers at 3,500 miles:

 

[DIL]

Yes, they have a photo of the tire wear... here:

View attachment 34344

I want to clarify something vs. what was said above, these tires started their life on the front for 5,000 miles or so, and had good tread and completely even wear when they were rotated to the back at the beginning of August. The wear you see on the insides was purely due to the last 4,000 miles spent on the rears.

Yikes. Tesla, please make this go away.

 

[brianman]

Now those are some throughly unattractive tires.

You and your car porn.

 

[N4HHE]

hoopty,

That is some interesting insight. The idea of running more toe in for the rear to effectively "pull in" the outside of the rear tires into the contact patch and reduce shoulder wear is interesting. That is the first time I have heard this and it may help explain some discrepancy we have in our tire wear survey.

For example a 1984 VW Rabbit front end is statically aligned with toe-out so its roughly straight under load. The 1985 VW Golf is aligned just the opposite with toe-in. Or I have the two backwards and its toe-in for Rabbit and toe-out for Golf. My Golf was incorrectly aligned to Rabbit specs once and was a fright to drive on wet pavement until it was corrected. My point being one can not assume the wheels will toe-in under drive force, we don't know where the flexible pivots are in the suspension.

 

[lolachampcar]

100th,
With rear camber numbers like those, that has to be a coil spring car; right?

I just saw the P+ in your signature....... Now I am very confused as there is no way an air car in Standard can have that kind of camber unless the factory has made a change.

 

[linkster]

100thMonkey, Can u please post the p/n's on your rear upper (camber) and toe links? Thanks.

Like Bill just said "there is no way an air car in Standard can have that kind of camber unless the factory has made a change".

 

[hoopty_yo]

Yes, they have a photo of the tire wear... here:

View attachment 34344
.

Those tires are disgusting. I would have hoped to see more of a wedge pattern with the specs listed. The wear from the second rib out is not so bad. I'm starting to wonder if there is more of a dynamic alignment issue vs. static. Is something moving under load? Those tires look like they were drug down the street sideways.

- - - Updated - - -

For example a 1984 VW Rabbit front end is statically aligned with toe-out so its roughly straight under load. The 1985 VW Golf is aligned just the opposite with toe-in. Or I have the two backwards and its toe-in for Rabbit and toe-out for Golf. My Golf was incorrectly aligned to Rabbit specs once and was a fright to drive on wet pavement until it was corrected. My point being one can not assume the wheels will toe-in under drive force, we don't know where the flexible pivots are in the suspension.

That's odd considering they are both front wheel drive. I have yet to see a car with a toe-out spec. Usually 0.00 to 0.15 deg. in.
FWD can get away with 0.00 because the wheels are pulled forward under load. I guess it could go either way though depending on front or rear mount steering rack. As far as gross amounts of movement, check out a Honda Civic (at least up to mid 2000s) doing a hard stop from 5 MPH. Probably an inch of movement in the wheel well, maybe more.
Edit: I stand corrected. Looks like 1984 specs -0.25 degree toe-out and 1985 is 0.00.

RWD usually specs a little more toe-in as the vehicle essentially "driving through" the front wheels, and they are following causing a small amount of toe-out under load. Mercedes requires the use of a spring-loaded toe bar that pushes the front wheels out during the alignment.

 

[FlasherZ]

Those tires are disgusting. I would have hoped to see more of a wedge pattern with the specs listed. The wear from the second rib out is not so bad. I'm starting to wonder if there is more of a dynamic alignment issue vs. static. Is something moving under load? Those tires look like they were drug down the street sideways.

I would expect the same...

The only differences that I can note versus others are that I spend > 70% of my miles at "low" suspension because we live in a rural area and are almost always running 2-lane and 4-lane highways > 55 mph, and I spend > 80% of my miles with four kids in the back. The former is probably something to be concerned about as we're going to start approaching 3 degrees of camber on the right and 2.5 on the left; the latter should be compensated for by air ride height sensing.

 

[hoopty_yo]

Were the readings taken at the "low" setting? I would highly recommend loading the vehicle with some dummy weight to simulate the passengers during alignment too. - Scratch that - ride height sensors.
I would have them print results for multiple ride height settings.

- - - Updated - - -

On an unrelated note -

I found some quality pictures and workings of the suspension here:
http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/...nature-performance-suspension-walkaround.html

 

[FlasherZ]

Were the readings taken at the "low" setting? I would highly recommend loading the vehicle with some dummy weight to simulate the passengers during alignment too. - Scratch that - ride height sensors.
I would have them print results for multiple ride height settings.

No, no ballast or weight in the car, it was taken on 'standard' setting since that's what Tesla's bulletin tells the machine operator to do. If it warrants further inspection we may do that, but right now it's -2ish and -2.7ish. It's clear something needs to be fixed.

 

[lolachampcar]

I had that very same feeling when I first looked at my MS' from the rear.

 

[100thMonkey]

100th,
With rear camber numbers like those, that has to be a coil spring car; right?

I just saw the P+ in your signature....... Now I am very confused as there is no way an air car in Standard can have that kind of camber unless the factory has made a change.

well, that's interesting, yes my car does have air and it is a P85+, 15,475. makes me wonder if this is in fact a read out from my car (insert conspiracy sound effects)... when I picked the car up, they couldn't put their hands on the read out, the tec had gone to lunch. I was told it would be scanned and emailed later, it does have the proper vin on it. I suppose if they forgot to save it, they could have mocked it somehow to save face, hoping I didn't know what I was looking at, but that's pretty far fetched (says he who is slightly prone to conspiracy theories). here is the shot showing the numbers after the alignment.

 

[100thMonkey]

not sure if this is helpful, but before my attempt with Les Schwab, I asked for a list of specs that I could hand over, this is what I was sent:

looks like I have less rear camber than is considered spec... should be better on tire wear in the long run, but still switching to 19's because I just don't like to go through tires so fast. This climate calls more for a good all season for the wet fall/winter/spring roads here and sometimes, we don't really get much in the way of a dry warm summer anyways. accustom to getting several years out of a set of tires, not several thousand miles. I figure with the P+, I'm still gaining stability, even with the 19's, and for the wetter colder months, I'm hoping it will be an improvement over the 21's, considering the limited tire options. I guess there's one way to find out, I'll report back over time how the tire wear and performance pans out with the changing seasons, this rear camber and the 19's.

Anyone who is interested in a low miles P85+ wheel set up with tires and TPMS, PM me. they will be available for delivery sometime next week, Ideally these would go to someone somewhat locally.

 

[DIL]

So 100th, you're mounting staggered 19's - which tires?