Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Chevy Bolt - 200 mile range for $30k base price (after incentive)

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
is it possible for a company to pay tesla for use of their cars on the SC network? Use the same connectors and batteries but have their own style and tech in cars???

Beats me why no other EV maker has done that.

I can imagine that Tesla would want such cars to be capable of charging "quickly", so they don't block the stalls, but other than that the Car Makers are sitting waiting for Someone Else to roll out fast charging. In EU governments are incentivising that, but its painfully slow and all driven by "committee". In USA you have, very sensibly, made that VW's job ... but even so ... "long time coming".

personally I would have also thought that someone like Jaguar would have bought the battery+drive-train from Tesla and just concentrated on their excellent Coach-building (I've raised that before and folk have educated me that building an EV from scratch is simple, compared to ICE, but even so ... IMHO Jaguar would already be selling in the marketplace if they had done that, and goodness knows what Snagging Problems they still face with their Version One)
 
Tesla has been black balled by the rest of the industry. To use Tesla technology or partner with them at this point would be legitimizing them and it would be an admission Tesla has done something right and many years of justification about how Tesla is a flash in the pan that's going under next Tuesday will all go out the window.

Another facet is most of the car industry is locked in a battle with Tesla in US courts over selling cars direct. Technologically, most companies would probably be OK selling cars directs, but they all have 100+ year relationships with local car dealers most of whom have grown very rich. In some parts of the US, the richest people in the county are the owners of the local car dealerships. There are some chains of dealerships with many stores in many cities. State legislatures have complex laws that prevent car makers from selling cars direct because of abuses that happened 70 years before the internet came along.

The car companies are fighting these battles on the side of their dealerships in part because they have long standing relationships and in some places they would never sell a car again if they put the local car dealership out of business.

Car makers also use dealerships to move inventory off their books. By selling the cars to a middleman, they can surf small fluctuations in the market with little trouble. For example when the Bolt wasn't selling well last year, it was a couple of months before GM slowed production because they were able to push the extra stock off on dealers. Because the dealers are separate entities they can more easily survive a few dealerships going under because they can't sell enough cars.

The relationships between dealers and makers are different in different countries, but the only car makers that aren't also selling in the US are usually third world bargain car makers who either make cheap ICE or bargain EVs with relatively small batteries that wouldn't be superchargable anyway.
 
Beats me why no other EV maker has done that.

I can imagine that Tesla would want such cars to be capable of charging "quickly", so they don't block the stalls, but other than that the Car Makers are sitting waiting for Someone Else to roll out fast charging. In EU governments are incentivising that, but its painfully slow and all driven by "committee". In USA you have, very sensibly, made that VW's job ... but even so ... "long time coming".

personally I would have also thought that someone like Jaguar would have bought the battery+drive-train from Tesla and just concentrated on their excellent Coach-building (I've raised that before and folk have educated me that building an EV from scratch is simple, compared to ICE, but even so ... IMHO Jaguar would already be selling in the marketplace if they had done that, and goodness knows what Snagging Problems they still face with their Version One)
Jaguar Land Rover Announces Record Global Sales in 2017

jaguar seems to be doing just fine
 
didnt a car company rent a tesla for a month and take it apart and put it back together again? Or was that bs.

Ford bought one of the first Model Xs from an early owner. I believe it's still owned by them.

Sure, but my point was that they are a smaller maker and could have chosen to buy-in some tech rather than having to home-grow it.

Jaguar is currently a division of Tata Motors of India. They were a division of Ford before that.

Tata is not the largest vehicle maker, but it's not small either.
 
Thanks. Yes I understand that they "can" do it, I just question why they would choose to.

It will be interesting to see how all these companies get on with their Version One vehicle, how late they are to the market, and how they are perceived. I picked Jaguar as an example because they don't make a lot of cars, and they have a reputation as a good coach-builder.

It seems to me very high risk coming late to the market with a Version One home-grown EV. When announced Tesla is at, say, Version 2-and-a-bit. By the time your car is out Tesla will be at Version 3+. I don't know what Tesla will do with MS & MX when M3 is out, but given recent price hikes upwards I presume that Quality is the next step. So if Tesla is already on Quality by the time that Jaguar comes to market, and Tesla have the whole Tech and EV thing sown-up, it strikes me as hard for, in this example, Jaguar.

A battery degradation issue, or a recall for some fault on drive-train, or customer complaints about any of the new-tech is likely to be a death knell for a newcomer, particularly small producer - heck, I think it may well be the death knell for companies like BMW and VW ... .

It seems to me that Chevy is getting on with it, and looks like they are doing a good job. Sure, questions over whether its Compliance-only, or looks goofy etc., but either way they are selling enough cars to get skills and knowledge, and are in a good position to ramp-up.
 
Tesla has been black balled by the rest of the industry. To use Tesla technology or partner with them at this point would be legitimizing them and it would be an admission Tesla has done something right and many years of justification about how Tesla is a flash in the pan that's going under next Tuesday will all go out the window.

Another facet is most of the car industry is locked in a battle with Tesla in US courts over selling cars direct. Technologically, most companies would probably be OK selling cars directs, but they all have 100+ year relationships with local car dealers most of whom have grown very rich. In some parts of the US, the richest people in the county are the owners of the local car dealerships. There are some chains of dealerships with many stores in many cities. State legislatures have complex laws that prevent car makers from selling cars direct because of abuses that happened 70 years before the internet came along.

The car companies are fighting these battles on the side of their dealerships in part because they have long standing relationships and in some places they would never sell a car again if they put the local car dealership out of business.

Car makers also use dealerships to move inventory off their books. By selling the cars to a middleman, they can surf small fluctuations in the market with little trouble. For example when the Bolt wasn't selling well last year, it was a couple of months before GM slowed production because they were able to push the extra stock off on dealers. Because the dealers are separate entities they can more easily survive a few dealerships going under because they can't sell enough cars.

The relationships between dealers and makers are different in different countries, but the only car makers that aren't also selling in the US are usually third world bargain car makers who either make cheap ICE or bargain EVs with relatively small batteries that wouldn't be superchargable anyway.

Car makers are in it for the profits (and enjoyment). They team up with each other constantly. Tesla has teamed up with Toyota and Mercedes Benz IIRC. GM has teamed up with nearly all automakers at various times: Ford, Rolls, Mercedes, Toyota, Honda, Isuzu, just off the top of my head.

There is no 'black listing' going on. If automakers are not using Tesla IP or DCFCs, it's not a conspiracy. It's economics. If any blacklisting is going on, it's in the reverse direction. Tesla will not allow franchise dealerships to offer their cars. They avoid licensing outside IP as much as possible. They won't allow second tier or even owner servicing without a fight. They fight against CCS, at least for now. The operate much like Apple Computers did in 1980, trying to isolate the brand. A Fiat EVSE will charge a Ford/Chevy/MB/BMW/VW/Nissan/Honda/Etc plug in car. Which cars will a Tesla EVSE charge? Teslas badged drivelines, not to include their partnership vehicles.

As far as dealerships go, Tesla effectively has dealerships. The owner of the dealerships is Tesla Motors. The fact a second tier exists with major automakers is controlled by law. How that will finally evolve is unknown at this point, but I do believe that Oregon is finally allowing some people to pump their own gasoline after 40 years so nothing is written in stone.

But back to the topic, the Chevrolet Bolt, it appears to be a typical Chevrolet:

Motor Trend recently compared the Bolt/Leaf/Model3LR. When they tested the actual MPGe on the Bolt it came up with 121 MPGe Combined on an EPA of 119 MPGe.
Tesla's 3LR recorded 104 MPGe actual on a 126 MPGe EPA combined.
The Leaf was was not tested.

This is not unusual. Most MFRs don't hit their claims when tested, with GM being the oddball.

Concerning 'compliance' rumors circling the Bolt Program, here's a good read: GM races to build a formula for profitable electric cars If it's true (and GM is conservative when it comes to product claims), it would seem that compliance isn't on the radar for the Bolt team.
 
It seems to me that Chevy is getting on with it, and looks like they are doing a good job. Sure, questions over whether its Compliance-only, or looks goofy etc., but either way they are selling enough cars to get skills and knowledge, and are in a good position to ramp-up.

It doesn't appear GM has any plans to ramp up their EV offerings until 2021. The Bolt appears to be a max 50k/yr vehicle, and even that seems a pretty optimistic goal unless GM substantially lowers the price or opens sales up to more markets.
 
Motor Trend recently compared the Bolt/Leaf/Model3LR. When they tested the actual MPGe on the Bolt it came up with 121 MPGe Combined on an EPA of 119 MPGe.
Tesla's 3LR recorded 104 MPGe actual on a 126 MPGe EPA combined.
The Leaf was was not tested.

This is not unusual. Most MFRs don't hit their claims when tested, with GM being the oddball.

Yeah, but the Model 3 returned 128 MPGe Hwy when it has an EPA rating of 120 MPGe.

I think you need to factor in that the Model 3 affords the ability to use MUCH more power than the Bolt, and that's what's being reflected in their "City" driving cycle.
 
It doesn't appear GM has any plans to ramp up their EV offerings until 2021. The Bolt appears to be a max 50k/yr vehicle, and even that seems a pretty optimistic goal unless GM substantially lowers the price or opens sales up to more markets.

The E100 for the Chinese market seems to off to a good start. Workers can get a 93mi EV for $5000 US after gov't incentives.
There is no argument whatsoever that it's a compliance car. GM says it will hit full compliance for China by 2020.
 
Yeah, but the Model 3 returned 128 MPGe Hwy when it has an EPA rating of 120 MPGe.

I think you need to factor in that the Model 3 affords the ability to use MUCH more power than the Bolt, and that's what's being reflected in their "City" driving cycle.

I'm not a big fan of Motor Trend. C&D does more professional testing than M/T, so I'm more interested in their numbers. But that review makes waiting for my Model 3LR even harder. I WANT IT!!!

A short version of recent M/T nonsense is the author of that comparison was the same guy (Kim) who said he like the Prius Prime better even though it handled worse and had far less performance than the Volt. Then in this article, he says he likes the Model 3 better because it handles better and has better performance than the Bolt. So he is pretty much a hypocrite. Nothing has changed there in 20 years. In case you haven't driven one, the Bolt handles well above average for small EVs/Hybrids. It's feels tight but not twitchy, and has good balance for a FWD short wheelbase.

Some folk just can't seem to hide their prejudice against Chevrolet and M/T is one of them.
 
Last edited:
It will be interesting to see how all these companies get on with their Version One vehicle, how late they are to the market, and how they are perceived. I picked Jaguar as an example because they don't make a lot of cars, and they have a reputation as a good coach-builder.

It seems to me very high risk coming late to the market with a Version One home-grown EV. When announced Tesla is at, say, Version 2-and-a-bit. By the time your car is out Tesla will be at Version 3+. I don't know what Tesla will do with MS & MX when M3 is out, but given recent price hikes upwards I presume that Quality is the next step. So if Tesla is already on Quality by the time that Jaguar comes to market, and Tesla have the whole Tech and EV thing sown-up, it strikes me as hard for, in this example, Jaguar.

Yes they are facing a stiff climb, though for some reason car companies don't seem to be aware Tesla is moving forward at a rapid pace. Or at least they aren't acknowledging it.

You mention recent price hikes, that may be an exchange rate thing. Tesla prices in the US have been steady for many months. I think the last time they changed anything was when they changed the options around and made some things standard at the same price, which is effectively a price reduction, though they also got rid of the alcantera dash too.

A battery degradation issue, or a recall for some fault on drive-train, or customer complaints about any of the new-tech is likely to be a death knell for a newcomer, particularly small producer - heck, I think it may well be the death knell for companies like BMW and VW ... .

It seems to me that Chevy is getting on with it, and looks like they are doing a good job. Sure, questions over whether its Compliance-only, or looks goofy etc., but either way they are selling enough cars to get skills and knowledge, and are in a good position to ramp-up.

Chevy may never ramp up the Bolt, but I do think it is the technology platform they will build on with future EVs. GM is the only other car maker than Tesla to bring a 200+ mile EV to market. While it doesn't look like they have any immediate plans to ramp up production, it does look like they are more serious than any other non-European company about developing the technology.

Car makers are in it for the profits (and enjoyment). They team up with each other constantly. Tesla has teamed up with Toyota and Mercedes Benz IIRC. GM has teamed up with nearly all automakers at various times: Ford, Rolls, Mercedes, Toyota, Honda, Isuzu, just off the top of my head.

There is no 'black listing' going on. If automakers are not using Tesla IP or DCFCs, it's not a conspiracy. It's economics. If any blacklisting is going on, it's in the reverse direction. Tesla will not allow franchise dealerships to offer their cars. They avoid licensing outside IP as much as possible. They won't allow second tier or even owner servicing without a fight. They fight against CCS, at least for now. The operate much like Apple Computers did in 1980, trying to isolate the brand. A Fiat EVSE will charge a Ford/Chevy/MB/BMW/VW/Nissan/Honda/Etc plug in car. Which cars will a Tesla EVSE charge? Teslas badged drivelines, not to include their partnership vehicles.

True, Tesla is determined to go their own way and I don't really like the Apple model of doing things. I find it very annoying when Apple tech is different for the sake of being different. But I have gotten the vibe that the "club" of established car makers don't want to acknowledge Tesla as anything but the mad fantasy of some tech guru from California.

Other car companies partner up all the time, but all the established makers are part of the "club", but Tesla is the outsider disrupter. They are the mammal in the world of dinosaurs. When car industry insiders like Bob Lutz talk about Tesla, all they seem capable of doing is predicting Tesla's immediate demise.

Concerning 'compliance' rumors circling the Bolt Program, here's a good read: GM races to build a formula for profitable electric cars If it's true (and GM is conservative when it comes to product claims), it would seem that compliance isn't on the radar for the Bolt team.

For the near term I think the Bolt is a compliance car, but it's also GM's insurance policy. If crunch time comes, they have a long range BEV design they could mass produce if they could get enough batteries. Nobody else other than Tesla has a design ready for market with that kind of range which puts GM a step ahead of the rest of the established car makers. In another year or two there are a number of European car makers that will have long range BEVs on the market, but right now GM is the only one.
 
  • Love
Reactions: FlatSix911
Kudos to GM for upgrading the Bolts firmware out in the wild. And using old 3.5" floppy drives for distributing it was very environmentally conscious to boot!

Maybe Tesla will take a cue from GM and step it up...

RT

Are you referring to a news story, or just painfully unaware that the old floppies were 8" hard sectored. 3.5" floppies are still in use, unlike FSD.
 
Depending on what kind of equipment you need to work with, there are some old legacy systems still in use with 8 inch floppies. I believe the USAF missile silos still have 8 inch floppies in their computer systems.

Probably more systems use 3.5 inch floppies than any other kind of floppies, but there are very few new systems being built that can interface with floppies, though there are USB floppy drives available. Even CD and DVD drives are going obsolete.
 
Depending on what kind of equipment you need to work with, there are some old legacy systems still in use with 8 inch floppies. I believe the USAF missile silos still have 8 inch floppies in their computer systems.

Probably more systems use 3.5 inch floppies than any other kind of floppies, but there are very few new systems being built that can interface with floppies, though there are USB floppy drives available. Even CD and DVD drives are going obsolete.

I still own an operational Xerox desktop with dual soft sectored 2mb 8" drives running CP/M. Not sure why I hang onto it. We stopped using 8" floppy equipment about 2010.

But I was just poking the bear concerning his reference to GM products accepting 3.5" media, which never occurred. VHS tapes, DVD/CD, and USB thumb drives are what GM has used. Even the Tech 2 diagnostic tool (obsolete) never used 3.5" media. It used SD cards, RS-232, or ethernet. The VHS tape was given out with certain models to instruct the buyer how to set the car up for track use.

I would assume his attack on the Bolt is due to the lack of need for constant updates, and that it came with fully functional advertised features when it was sold. GM's OTA ability predates the first Roadster. Why don't they use it more? Not necessary I suppose. Our 2002 GM has never had a dealer update in it's life. It might have advanced 3D Active Handling with Competition and Street settings, and programmable HUD, as well as Driver's Information Console OBDII code reading built in, but none of those system have ever needed an update.
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: dhrivnak
I just returned from an weekend trip from MD to NYC and back in my Bolt last night. 420 miles in all. While I have never driven a Tesla on a road trip with Supercharging, I have to admit that the road trip in a 240+ mile rated Tesla (75 and up?) would have had to have been easier than what I experienced in my Bolt. My biggest concern (fast charging neutering due to cold HV pack temps) turned out to be a non-issue, but other issues made the trip more difficult.

Cliff notes version:
1. NYC destination charging sucks (Tesla destination charging included since I have the Jdapter Stub and it didn't help at all)
2. 100 amp max CCS charging stations suck
3. The Bolt's aggressive fast charging taper sucks
4. Parking in NYC sucks period

The actual drive in the Bolt was perfectly fine. Completely comfortable for my family of 4. It's just the charging part that sucked. I'm gonna write up a blog with a full post mortem, but that's my quick take.
 
I would assume his attack on the Bolt is due to the lack of need for constant updates, and that it came with fully functional advertised features when it was sold. GM's OTA ability predates the first Roadster. Why don't they use it more? Not necessary I suppose. Our 2002 GM has never had a dealer update in it's life. It might have advanced 3D Active Handling with Competition and Street settings, and programmable HUD, as well as Driver's Information Console OBDII code reading built in, but none of those system have ever needed an update.

My 2010 Prius has had two software updates. OTA would have avoided at least one trip to the dealer. (Can't remember whether I combined the first one with a physical recall fix.)

My 2013 Volt has had two software updates. OTA would have avoided one of the trips to the dealer. (The other software update was done while other recall work was being done.)