N5329K
Active Member
No. The $16-18K Fit. The Fit EV has what? An 80 mile range for $37,000?
And it looks just like the $16,000 model.
How many have they sold, do you suppose?
Robin
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Chevy Bolt screams middle America like Walmart Khakis
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And it looks just like the $16,000 model.
How many have they sold, do you suppose?
Robin
It's no big secret that an EV powertrain is $12-18,000 more than a 4-cyl gas engine and trans in the <100 mile range class.
Nor is it a secret that in California, there is a total of $10,000 in incentives from the government, so the Bolt is $27.5k minus what GM incentives like Veteran, Farm Bureau, Costco, etc, are in play. The zero down lease is $309.
If you get bored, find the cheapest 4 door car that can match the high speed passing performance of the Bolt.
Starting at 50mph, you stab it, and see how long it takes to hit 70mph. 3.5 seconds for the Bolt. Most economy cars do poorly at passing. The Honda Fit? 6.1 seconds. The much more expensive BMW i3? 4.4 seconds. The BMW 330i? 4.4 seconds for $47k.
What if hotels that have car rental companies inside of them, (think big Marriotts, Sheratons, etc), put a couple of chargers in, and the Hertz counter rented Bolts?? I can see that working well in LA/Orange County or Hawaii. Then, folks could get an experience driving EV's that might not otherwise.
Sure. Reference price is the price people have in their minds at the start of a negotiation. For example, It is better for the consumer to negotiate from invoice rather than list price. Traditionally the list price is a false reference price, there to trick the customer into over paying.
So a reference price is a price that you measure against. Like king Henry had a reference foot.
Tesla has very carefully selected the BMW 3 series as the most credible reference for the Model 3. Everything builds on that reference vehicle, with the goal of using the optioned price of a BMW as a price umbrella. Downward price pressure disappears (loses credibility ) as long as the price is less than the umbrella BMW 3 series reference.
The Bolt does not have a credible reference vehicle anywhere near it in price to act as an umbrella. Cars that appear to be very similar, cost half as much: "Looks just like this, but cost twice as much, when we need to send our kids to college?"
If they buy a Model 3, at least they learn about high standards.
Big cities where people didn't have to travel far perhaps. They would need a tow truck to tow back the stranded idiots.
Middle America doesn't want a silly looking car. Why would anyone want cars that look like that for those prices? The fossil fuel burning car companies make token EVs for what they see as millinial man-buns; the Detroit car makers are just not that serious about renewable energy or EVs, and the fact is they also know they will never get around the battery- they can't compete with the Tesla gigafactory's superior product. They are better off watering down demand with token efforts at a EV that just jams up market with crap and cuts into tax credits. If you can't make a car to compete with Model 3, just destroy the market with shite products and taint image before model 3 arrives.
No, they generally are not at all rational. The history of humanity, past and recent, makes that clear.
Agreed. The Bolt looks like a $20K car, inside and out. I'm worried that the additional $10K in cost (after government credits and rebates) will turn most people off.
I truly do hope the Bolt is a success, and I define that as an annual demand of over 100K vehicles. Much less than that and it won't be a success from my point of view.
BluestarE3
Active Member
A more straightforward definition of reference price is: "What you think it is worth."
Probably just like me. I'd never pay $23k for a BMW 3xx. It's a freakin' Civic with different badging. Well, except a Honda is reliable.
Although I would consider paying $27.5 for an EV that's quicker than a $47k BMW.
I never could understand why people pay big bucks for slugs.
Patrick0101
Member
The CCS network is still small and GM is not doing much, if anything, to grow it. Without a fast charge network, an EV (even a 200 mile EV) is restricted to around-town trips.
Reality Check- Fashionista 2017 BMW $47k:
Zero to 60 mph: 5.4 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 14.0 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 27.1 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 6.7 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 3.6 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 4.4 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 14.0 sec @ 100 mph
Top speed (governor limited, C/D est): 155 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 168 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.83 g
Antique engineering pushrod 2017 Chevy, $45k:
Zero to 60 mph: 4.1 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 9.2 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 15.9 sec
Zero to 150 mph: 25.4 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 4.6 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 10.6 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 10 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 12.4 sec @ 116 mph
Top speed (C/D est): 165 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 141 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 1.05 g
It's not just that the lowest of the Chevrolets will rape a BMW in it's price sector in handling and power and brakes. That's a given, and it's not close, nor has been for 19 years.
The Chevrolet holds up better to abuse, and is actually competitive. Heck, Chevrolet will NOT void your warranty for racing, where BMW will.
Zero to 60 mph: 5.4 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 14.0 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 27.1 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 6.7 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 3.6 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 4.4 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 14.0 sec @ 100 mph
Top speed (governor limited, C/D est): 155 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 168 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.83 g
Antique engineering pushrod 2017 Chevy, $45k:
Zero to 60 mph: 4.1 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 9.2 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 15.9 sec
Zero to 150 mph: 25.4 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 4.6 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 10.6 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 10 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 12.4 sec @ 116 mph
Top speed (C/D est): 165 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 141 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 1.05 g
It's not just that the lowest of the Chevrolets will rape a BMW in it's price sector in handling and power and brakes. That's a given, and it's not close, nor has been for 19 years.
The Chevrolet holds up better to abuse, and is actually competitive. Heck, Chevrolet will NOT void your warranty for racing, where BMW will.
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Looking at Plugshare it appears there are over twice the CCS sites in Oregon as Superchargers. California is about 10:1 IIRC.
In a year, expect about 50% increase in coverage and number of sites.
Note that the first 125kW CCS's are supposed to be coming in soon.
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Yeah, the Volt doesn't offer power seats either. Chevy claims its to reduce weight.
That's actually the feature I am most looking forward to getting back in my S. My husband is 6' tall and I am 5'2", so I cringe whenever he drives the Volt knowing it's going to take me a while to get my seat back to where I like it.
Patrick0101
Member
Yes, the coasts are covered in CCS. But there are still issues:
- The installations are haphazard. CCS sites seem to be at whichever host was interested. Rather than in a planned network. This leaves big gaps in some regions.
- There is usually only one CCS connector at a CCS site. This means that if the spot is taken (by an EV or ICEd) or the charger is broken, you are out of luck.
On the 2nd point, Supercharger locations have many charging stalls. The "look at PlugShare" response shows the number of sites, this is not the same as the number of charging spots. As mentioned above, if there is only one place to charge and it is not available, you could be stuck. Plugshare has a picture of one of the CCS parking spots at a local store filled with pumpkins. That would be fun on a rainy day in October, to move 80 pumpkins in pouring rain, so I can get my car into the spot to connect it to a charging station that may or may not work. Before recently getting my Tesla, I drove a Leaf for 5 years and some of the things that you find at some DCFC stations is infuriating.
CHAdeMO reliability has been a significant issue. I hope CCS is better. Again, more charging spots helps. If one of eight spots is down, that is not a big deal. If one of one is broken, that is a big deal.
I hope the CCS network improves. Then, when Tesla comes out with an adapter, there will be even more places that I could charge the Tesla. The Bolt is stuck with the CCS network, the Leaf with the CHAdeMO network. Tesla can use the Tesla network, the CHAdeMO network, and soon, the CCS network too.
If you want to use your car for more than commuting and errands, the charging networks matter.
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
While I agree with the general point of the article, I strongly disagree with the "Middle America" comment.
The Bolt looks like a Japanese subcompact hatchback on the outside (the profile is a doppelganger for the Honda Fit), and the interior has clear Korean aesthetic. This is NOT a car that is visually connected in any way towards "Middle America". "Middle America" is kind a vague term, but generally speaking, the people I know from "Middle America" aspire to pickup trucks, muscle cars, and SUVs. To many of them, a nimble little hatchback is something for the coastal effete, uh, I mean elite
I guarantee you that if there was a GMC Terrain EV with similar performance and range to the Bolt, "Middle America" would be sold on it.
That carswithcords article from February is out of date as it precedes the Volkswagen dieselgate settlement. VW is all but certain to build a nationwide wall of fast DC CCS chargers for everyone to use along highway corridors and their German HQ will pay for it.
VW Settlement May Supercharge non-Tesla DC Rollout in US - HybridCars.com
The Canadian pricing of the Bolt is a few thousand cheaper than the US pricing, taking into account the exchange rate. Given that, I'm hypothesizing that the Bolt in the US will drop in price when the Model 3 comes out.
The Chevy Bolt EV will be significantly cheaper in Canada, and include DC fast-charging
The Chevy Bolt EV will be significantly cheaper in Canada, and include DC fast-charging
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