Climate Change Denial

[Big Dog]

I, for one, am happy that Tesla receives these subsidies. I am disappointed at Elon's hypocrisy.
If he truly believes in getting rid of all subsidies then he should not accept them... but, of course, he won't.

As the saying goes, 'you play the hand that you are dealt.' If the federal, state and local governments want to throw taxpayer dollars at you, it would be irresponsible not to take them. And as a fiduciary to the stockholders, he has a legal responsibility to avail himself of the public largesse. Similarly, since Tesla built its own charging network on its own dime, Elon is supporting his shareholders by talking shade about the feds building out a charging network primarily for Telsa's competitors. That's what a CEO should be doing.

 

[nwdiver]

One assumption folks make is that we know. We may have evidence, but there are plenty of concensi that get stale. Climate change may be the result of changing magnetic poles, which seems to be causing increased havoc.

If this was normal, I would expect someone to prepare for it. SpaceX loses 40 satellites to geomagnetic storm a day after launch

.... how? .... how would changing magnetic poles increase radiative forcing?

There's a very strong correlation between CO2 levels and global temperature in Earth climate history... but no correlation between climate and the other >180 times the magnetic poles have shifted. Here.... can you spot the pole reversals? No? It's because they don't really influence the climate.

But it 'oddly' correlates to CO2 level... not to mention that you can directly measure the radiative properties of a CO2 molecule and .... yep.... it can 100% do that.... The first paper describing how CO2 can influence climate change was published decades BEFORE we discovered any correlation.

Flip Flop: Why Variations in Earth's Magnetic Field Aren't Causing Today's Climate Change​

 

[IronHamster]

Correlation does not mean causation. For instance, frozen biomass doesn't deteriorate nearly as fast as it does at 90F, and all those little microbes release CO2. In warm periods, the south American rain forests are net producers of CO2.

 

[nwdiver]

Correlation does not mean causation. For instance, frozen biomass doesn't deteriorate nearly as fast as it does at 90F, and all those little microbes release CO2. In warm periods, the south American rain forests are net producers of CO2.

??? Who said it did??? BUT.... a lack of correlation WOULD DISPROVE causation.

Like I said. The physical properties of CO2 were discovered decades BEFORE any correlation. CO2 was PREDICTED to be able to cause warming and that's exactly what the climate record shows.

'We know CO2 causes warming because when CO2 rises global temperature rises' -no one ever

'We know CO2 causes warming because it's more transparent on incoming visible energy than outgoing infra-red energy' -Science

On the Influence of Carbonic Acid in the Air upon the Temperature of the Ground

 

[IronHamster]

I have to go back to 2009, so, yeah, it has a been said before.

The 10 Most-Respected Global Warming Skeptics

www.businessinsider.com

I am curious as to whether they still hold their position, or others have joined them. Given my online experience with Covid, which mostly I have been right about, I would not be surprised if the skeptics have been suppressed. There might be some good arguments a politically motivated search engine will never raise to the surface.

But the remaining question is, even if it is real what are we going to do about it. I have a modest lifestyle. In my life my carbon footprint will be lower than John Kerry's in any given year. At the last big climate change conference in Scotland they literally ran out of room at the airport because so many attendees had their own jumbo jet to park. Obama and Al Gore both bought large private mansions close to a rising sea. Look, if THEY don't take it seriously why should I?

 

[nwdiver]

even if it is real what are we going to do about it.

This nonsense always 'cracks' me up. We literally understand global warming better than gravity. Of course it's real. CO2 increases radiative forcing. Fact. CO2 levels are >40% higher because of our pathetic addiction to fools fuel. Fact. 2 + 2 is 4. Fact. There isn't the tiniest bit of doubt about any of those facts. OF COURSE global warming is real.

What do we do? We stop using fools fuel for energy. Electrify everything and get ~100% of our energy from SUPER-abundant wind and solar. This isn't rocket science. What can't be electrified we can power with hydro-carbons manufactured from C, H and sunlight.

 

[JRP3]

I have to go back to 2009, so, yeah, it has a been said before.

Since no one has been able to disprove the simple physics of the CO2 molecule and it's ability to trap heat nothing has been said before that disproves global warming. It's like building a greenhouse and trying to pretend the physics of glass doesn't cause it to trap heat.

 

[eevee-fan]

More denialism, I see signs of farmers insisting on eliminating dams so flood water would just drain into the ocean, so smart. Sigh...

 

[David_Cary]

Obama and Al Gore both bought large private mansions close to a rising sea. Look, if THEY don't take it seriously why should I?

I don't know exact details but the pic I could find for Gore's house was very elevated. Hard to tell about Obama's but definitely looks lower. I have an ocean front property and so I have thought about this a pretty good deal. It goes something like this.

- you only live once and the house was going to be occuppied by someone
- the first few feet of sea level rise is going to take awhile and I will have enjoyed the house for many years before it happens
- If sea level rise accelerates, the chaos that it causes will make my loss of property just a drop in the bucket of bad things.
- As things change, I will be able to sell before value goes way down because my house is still higher than several million houses. As is Gore's and Obama's is probably relatively protected by not being on the ocean even if it does not appear to have much elevation.

Sea level rise is a slowly ticking time bomb. The earlier issue is what does temperature does to vulnerable population areas (ie nowhere in the US), disease/pest changes, crop yields and water availability/fires. By the time Gore's house is in trouble, probably 50% of the world's population is dead from conflicts around land/resources and cilivization is on the verge of collapse.

So yeah - enjoy the ocean view because it makes zero difference on when the billions that will die. Now - flying on a private jet - that is just sociopathic. The energy use of multiple mansions - ditto. But, also know that you can't be a successful politician at the national level without a whole bunch of psychologic pathologies - narcissism being essential.

 

[IronHamster]

This nonsense always 'cracks' me up. We literally understand global warming better than gravity. Of course it's real. CO2 increases radiative forcing. Fact. CO2 levels are >40% higher because of our pathetic addiction to fools fuel. Fact. 2 + 2 is 4. Fact. There isn't the tiniest bit of doubt about any of those facts. OF COURSE global warming is real.

What do we do? We stop using fools fuel for energy. Electrify everything and get ~100% of our energy from SUPER-abundant wind and solar. This isn't rocket science. What can't be electrified we can power with hydro-carbons manufactured from C, H and sunlight.

I can go below zero net carbon emissions, and for every hundred of me there will be a John Kerry burning fuel like it doesn't matter, because frankly it obviously doesn't to him. Are you going to take away the private jumbo jets of the environmental elitists? How about Jeff Bezos and his super-yacht? Will that be moored or have sails added? And I have repeatedly pointed out the Chinese are going to do as they please. You can't even get them to acknowledge a patent, so how are you going to get them to stop burning coal?

 

[IronHamster]

I don't know exact details but the pic I could find for Gore's house was very elevated. Hard to tell about Obama's but definitely looks lower. I have an ocean front property and so I have thought about this a pretty good deal. It goes something like this.

- you only live once and the house was going to be occuppied by someone
- the first few feet of sea level rise is going to take awhile and I will have enjoyed the house for many years before it happens
- If sea level rise accelerates, the chaos that it causes will make my loss of property just a drop in the bucket of bad things.
- As things change, I will be able to sell before value goes way down because my house is still higher than several million houses. As is Gore's and Obama's is probably relatively protected by not being on the ocean even if it does not appear to have much elevation.

Sea level rise is a slowly ticking time bomb. The earlier issue is what does temperature does to vulnerable population areas (ie nowhere in the US), disease/pest changes, crop yields and water availability/fires. By the time Gore's house is in trouble, probably 50% of the world's population is dead from conflicts around land/resources and cilivization is on the verge of collapse.

So yeah - enjoy the ocean view because it makes zero difference on when the billions that will die. Now - flying on a private jet - that is just sociopathic. The energy use of multiple mansions - ditto. But, also know that you can't be a successful politician at the national level without a whole bunch of psychologic pathologies - narcissism being essential.

I'll be a whole lot more sympathetic to the movement when the hypocrites are exposed and booted by the rank and file en masse. Part of the political motivation to jump on these bandwagons is that that narcissistic politician knows he will have a cheering section that will literally let him get away with anything. See how that works?

Al Gore's house may be elevated, but a rising sea level may well undermine his foundation assuming it happens. I can't help but think of Florida sink holes and California mudslides.

 

[JRP3]

This is so ridiculous. Gore and Obama's homes are not going anywhere in their lifetimes, period, so of course they don't need to worry about it. That doesn't change the fact that increased CO2 will warm the planet and eventually cause the oceans to rise further.

How about Jeff Bezos and his super-yacht? Will that be moored or have sails added?

You mean this one?

 

[nwdiver]

I can go below zero net carbon emissions, and for every hundred of me there will be a John Kerry burning fuel like it doesn't matter, because frankly it obviously doesn't to him. Are you going to take away the private jumbo jets of the environmental elitists? How about Jeff Bezos and his super-yacht? Will that be moored or have sails added? And I have repeatedly pointed out the Chinese are going to do as they please. You can't even get them to acknowledge a patent, so how are you going to get them to stop burning coal?

Question: What does ANY of that have to do with whether climate change is real?

2nd Question: Wouldn't accepting it's a problem be the first step to solving the problem?

 

[CyberGus]

I'll be a whole lot more sympathetic to the movement when the hypocrites are exposed and booted by the rank and file en masse. Part of the political motivation to jump on these bandwagons is that that narcissistic politician knows he will have a cheering section that will literally let him get away with anything. See how that works?

Al Gore's house may be elevated, but a rising sea level may well undermine his foundation assuming it happens. I can't help but think of Florida sink holes and California mudslides.

When I'm devising a course of action, I try to do the right thing. The actions of others do not factor in to my decision-making.

 

[Undecided_2]

I’ve read a lot of theses posts here. For me it’s obvious. I know that we’re changing the climate. Every time I go to a big city I can see the smog. LA & London are prime examples. I spent time around the Grand Canyon and could see the brown smear of pollution for hundreds of miles.

We’ve ruined and poisoned the air we breathe. I walked on many beaches and observed the trash beneath my feet. Swam in the sea amongst pollution and watched dead animals float past with plastic tangled around their bodies.

We’ve changed and continue to change our environment and making it toxic for all life. Climate denialism will continue until it’s too late as greed is rampant everywhere. The masses don’t want to change their lives for the greater good and why should they? Others have enjoyed the good life so why can’t they?

Rich countries point fingers at other countries and tell them that they can’t cut their forests down as it’s bad for them. Yes we did it but you shouldn’t but we still want the cattle for the meat and we’ll buy it from you.

Government’s tell us that we should make informed decisions when we shop. How can I when all the food I buy is imported as the country doesn’t grow it anymore.

Magnetic pole shifts? Carbon capture masks for cows to reduce methane? Seriously? (Eat less meat or stop eating meat, such a simple fix)

Walk outside with your Starbucks cup that won’t be recycled or can’t be recycled and look around at the filth we've surrounded ourselves in.

Climate change is real just look out the window to see how much we’ve treated the earth like a sewer. We’re on borrowed time. But please, all you deniers continue to spout spreadsheets and videos to make yourself feel better that it’s not real and the extreme human made pollution has been happening since the world began.


Next time I read a history book I’ll check on how thousands of years ago they were making 300 millions tons of plastic each year and dumping it in the oceans, millions of cars with all their components that are shipped from dozens of countries, and the billions of people that had phones that they changed each year to post rants like mine on the internet.

Deniers, don’t look up! Why bother. We’re all toast unless someone points a big gun at us and forces the masses to become the solution.

 

[IronHamster]

One thing I will always remember about the Covid shutdowns was how fast the air cleaned up. I could see distances much more clearly. China has horrible air quality. I bet they had an even more distinct change. That doesn't stop them from commissioning a new coal plant every week, though.

In this transition, we will continue to burn fossil fuels. Our American drilling rigs are much less polluting than those in the third world, and the energy spent to move that fuel is much less also, but Biden says we can't frack and we have to buy oil from our geopolitical enemies. It's no wonder why we have inflation. I don't think it is good news, though, as higher lending rates will kill businesses that can't service the higher cost of debt.

The plastic in the oceans comes from third world countries and China for the most part. If we go into a depression, we will be contributing more to that floating mass, too.

Yes, it's a crazy world and easy to think of dystopian futures, and you've only touched on a few issues. My issue is, compared to the global warming elitist leaders my contribution is just a fart in a tornado.

 

[Undecided_2]

My farts need carbon capture technology.

 

[JRP3]

Biden says we can't frack and we have to buy oil from our geopolitical enemies.

First we are fracking and there are thousands of well leases not being used, second fracked oil is not compatible with many of our refineries so we need to import oil that is. These are business decisions by the petroleum industry not political issues.

 

[FlatSix911]

I’ve read a lot of theses posts here. For me it’s obvious. I know that we’re changing the climate. Every time I go to a big city I can see the smog. LA & London are prime examples. I spent time around the Grand Canyon and could see the brown smear of pollution for hundreds of miles.

We’ve ruined and poisoned the air we breathe. I walked on many beaches and observed the trash beneath my feet. Swam in the sea amongst pollution and watched dead animals float past with plastic tangled around their bodies.

We’ve changed and continue to change our environment and making it toxic for all life. Climate denialism will continue until it’s too late as greed is rampant everywhere. The masses don’t want to change their lives for the greater good and why should they? Others have enjoyed the good life so why can’t they?

Rich countries point fingers at other countries and tell them that they can’t cut their forests down as it’s bad for them. Yes we did it but you shouldn’t but we still want the cattle for the meat and we’ll buy it from you.

Government’s tell us that we should make informed decisions when we shop. How can I when all the food I buy is imported as the country doesn’t grow it anymore. Magnetic pole shifts? Carbon capture masks for cows to reduce methane? Seriously? (Eat less meat or stop eating meat, such a simple fix) Walk outside with your Starbucks cup that won’t be recycled or can’t be recycled and look around at the filth we've surrounded ourselves in.

Climate change is real just look out the window to see how much we’ve treated the earth like a sewer. We’re on borrowed time. But please, all you deniers continue to spout spreadsheets and videos to make yourself feel better that it’s not real and the extreme human made pollution has been happening since the world began.

Next time I read a history book I’ll check on how thousands of years ago they were making 300 millions tons of plastic each year and dumping it in the oceans, millions of cars with all their components that are shipped from dozens of countries, and the billions of people that had phones that they changed each year to post rants like mine on the internet.

Deniers, don’t look up! Why bother. We’re all toast unless someone points a big gun at us and forces the masses to become the solution.

One thing I will always remember about the Covid shutdowns was how fast the air cleaned up. I could see distances much more clearly. China has horrible air quality. I bet they had an even more distinct change. That doesn't stop them from commissioning a new coal plant every week, though.

In this transition, we will continue to burn fossil fuels. Our American drilling rigs are much less polluting than those in the third world, and the energy spent to move that fuel is much less also, but Biden says we can't frack and we have to buy oil from our geopolitical enemies. It's no wonder why we have inflation. I don't think it is good news, though, as higher lending rates will kill businesses that can't service the higher cost of debt.

The plastic in the oceans comes from third world countries and China for the most part. If we go into a depression, we will be contributing more to that floating mass, too. Yes, it's a crazy world and easy to think of dystopian futures, and you've only touched on a few issues. My issue is, compared to the global warming elitist leaders my contribution is just a fart in a tornado.

The truth is clear, however, unless China buys into dramatic CO2 reductions we are all in trouble.

Each Country's Share of CO2 Emissions

Which 20 countries emit the most carbon dioxide? You may be surprised.

www.ucsusa.org

 

[eevee-fan]

The truth is clear, however, unless China buys into dramatic CO2 reductions we are all in trouble.

Each Country's Share of CO2 Emissions

Which 20 countries emit the most carbon dioxide? You may be surprised.

www.ucsusa.org

View attachment 799005

Such entitled attitude. Now let's look at the chart PER CAPITA.

Or we can trace the pollution to the end users... most of the pollution in China is a result of making stuff for the USA.