Climate Change / Global Warming Discussion

[mspohr]

 

[Norbert]

I think we can conclusively say that fossil fuels are bad. They have destroyed our environment and caused the extinction of life.

We should have continued R&D on electric cars, batteries and alterative energy sources from the beginning. Intensively. Instead we allowed market forces (and marketing campaigns) to create monopoly forces that many politicians and influencers still want to perpetuate as if it were god's own will for that to be the source of profit. Some even quote the bible on that topic.

By the way, I've read on this thread or the GND thread that some think of the subsidies for the oil industry as small money. But even if you don't count the enormous indirect costs (and, I guess, such things as troops being sent to Saudi Arabia) and just use a probably unchallenged number like $20 billion per year (federal plus state). That money could be used for a sales-time rebate of $15,000 per pure EV for up to 1,300,000 EVs per year. In the current situation, such a high rebate would quickly result in the quadrupling of EV sales in the US. This would result in accelerating EV development and production by many, many years, and probably help EVs to surpass 50% of all sold cars far sooner. As far as I can tell.

So not such a small amount of money.

 

[nwdiver]

Anyone that continues to use fools fuel when they have the ability to shift away has a tremendous deficit of intellect or ethics.....

 

[winfield100]

If the world ran on sun, it wouldn’t fight over oil | Bill McKibben
The last time we started down this path, in Iraq more than 15 years ago, a solar panel cost 10 times what it does today. Wind power was still in its infancy. No one you knew had ever driven an electric car. Today the sun and the breeze are the cheapest ways to generate power on our Earth, and Chinese factories are churning out electric vehicles. That is to say, we have the technology available to us that would render this kind of warmongering transparently absurd even to the most belligerent soul.

Actually
1) in 1974 (appx 45 years ago , but 40 when i found the statistic) Solar PV was ~$101/watt. about 15 - 20 years prior to that, late 1950's very early 1960's PV was ~$600+/watt.
{{{{Robert Heinlein wrote a science fiction story 10 - 15 years before that late 1940's early 50's about the "Douglas - Martin sun screens" (co invented by a lady) that were inexpensive, collected sunlight for electricity and were inexpensive and ubiquitous}}}}
You can now buy PV panels for 25 - 40 cents a watt
The drop in cost is not 10X its more like 100x - 250X

my first PV array was 26sq meters and 1,184 watts and was around $9,000 - $10,000 (50 - 60% subsidized in 1999
my 2nd PV array is 59.9 sq meters and 11,655 watts and $31,000 (with 30% tax credit) ~$2.70/watt

my first PV array made 11% of my needs/monthly use.
my second PV array makes 200% of my needs/monthly use even though it it 10x the size, it makes ~20x due to lowered use, LED's, extremely efficient 30cubic ft refrigerator, computers, monitors etc all way less power required. (we did raise 2 children plus dozens of their friends so used a llt of electricity to do so)

(in 1974 it would have cost $1.18 million or $6.99 million in 1956)

2) Some of us (me for instance) drove, but didnt own EV's as far back as the mid 1970's, but it was a "death trap" ran on PbA (lead acid)batteries (it was a 'leadsled') and could go ~35 mph downhill (~50kph) 1974 ElCar (based on Fiat 500 chassis)
( i never dressed like that)

then had a CitiCar
(mine was blue)

and also a deathtrap unless on local roads

 

[mspohr]

Actually
1) in 1974 (appx 45 years ago , but 40 when i found the statistic) Solar PV was ~$101/watt. about 15 - 20 years prior to that, late 1950's very early 1960's PV was ~$600+/watt.
{{{{Robert Heinlein wrote a science fiction story 10 - 15 years before that late 1940's early 50's about the "Douglas - Martin sun screens" (co invented by a lady) that were inexpensive, collected sunlight for electricity and were inexpensive and ubiquitous}}}}
You can now buy PV panels for 25 - 40 cents a watt
The drop in cost is not 10X its more like 100x - 250X

my first PV array was 26sq meters and 1,184 watts and was around $9,000 - $10,000 (50 - 60% subsidized in 1999
my 2nd PV array is 59.9 sq meters and 11,655 watts and $31,000 (with 30% tax credit) ~$2.70/watt

my first PV array made 11% of my needs/monthly use.
my second PV array makes 200% of my needs/monthly use even though it it 10x the size, it makes ~20x due to lowered use, LED's, extremely efficient 30cubic ft refrigerator, computers, monitors etc all way less power required. (we did raise 2 children plus dozens of their friends so used a llt of electricity to do so)

(in 1974 it would have cost $1.18 million or $6.99 million in 1956)

2) Some of us (me for instance) drove, but didnt own EV's as far back as the mid 1970's, but it was a "death trap" ran on PbA (lead acid)batteries (it was a 'leadsled') and could go ~35 mph downhill (~50kph) 1974 ElCar (based on Fiat 500 chassis)
( i never dressed like that)

then had a CitiCar
(mine was blue)
View attachment 458435
and also a deathtrap unless on local roads

You are a true pioneer, putting the environment ahead of personal safety.
(Are you sure you didn't dress like that?)

 

[mspohr]

The endless bummer: 2019 was the warmest summer in modern history

The endless bummer: 2019 was the warmest summer in modern history

 

[winfield100]

So what are you willing to give up? We could all go back to living like our ancestors. No real need for smart phones, televisions, dishwashers, washing machines, heating and air conditioning, etc, etc. By the way if you look at the data there are no more super storms, floods and droughts than in the past.

I call willful ignorance on your part.
you really don't know what you are talking about.
Climate change, human exacerbated climate change, global warming, however you wish, or not, to name it, is not a matter of polite discussion as to whats going on, but how we survive it as a species.
In as polite a manner as possible, Your denial is superfluous and useless, inconsequential and an evolutionary dead end, period, finis, etc, waste of resources
(hurricanes are tracking across the Atlantic about 100 - 125 miles further north due to climate change)
(and a _lot_ stronger)
Hurricane Andrew, Catagory 5 1992:
Note: Lake Okeechoobee in Florida on the left

Hurricane Irma, 25 years later, also Catagory 5, but probably 4x bigger

Hurricane Dorian, a few short weeks ago,

 

[mspohr]

Most of world's biggest firms 'unlikely' to meet Paris climate targets

Most of world's biggest firms 'unlikely' to meet Paris climate targets

About half of 2,900 companies included in the study have a near-term score that aligns with the Paris Climate target to keep global temperature rise at below 1.5C by 2030.

However, these efforts will not be enough to keep a lid on temperatures in the longer term. The analysis shows only a fifth of these companies will remain on track by 2050 and more than a quarter are likely to push temperatures up by at least 2.7C.

 

[winfield100]

There are more trees in the US than 100 years ago. In addition CO2 helps plants grow and is actually helping green the planet. However, overall the number of trees is going down because of what is going on in other countries. If you look at Haiti versus Dominican Republic you can see what happens when you do not have access to fossil fuels. Haiti is almost devoid of trees because they do not have ready access to fossil fuels..

Actually, replace "fossil fuels" with inexpensive free energy, manufactured from sunlight.
If you have free or extremely inexpensive electricity, you don't need fossil fuels, except you then disrupt a $2-3 TRILLION a year fossil fuel industry and decentralize power (and control) of all types

 

[mspohr]

Actually, replace "fossil fuels" with inexpensive free energy, manufactured from sunlight.
If you have free or extremely inexpensive electricity, you don't need fossil fuels, except you then disrupt a $2-3 TRILLION a year fossil fuel industry and decentralize power (and control) of all types

We have more trees in the US because we have outsourced our slash and burn agriculture to the Amazon.
No need to burn anything for energy or food.

 

[winfield100]

You are a true pioneer, putting the environment ahead of personal safety.
(Are you sure you didn't dress like that?)

@mspohr
it was the age of disco(rdant) muzak
(If you want to rip out your brain, listen to the disco version of "the streets of London", never to be "unheard" and nightmare inducing

. no, i would not have been caught dead dressed like that. I drove them a few times but too slow, underpowered, no range. i waited for technology to catch up like it has, finally

 

[ladysbff]

Actually
1) in 1974 (appx 45 years ago , but 40 when i found the statistic) Solar PV was ~$101/watt. about 15 - 20 years prior to that, late 1950's very early 1960's PV was ~$600+/watt.
{{{{Robert Heinlein wrote a science fiction story 10 - 15 years before that late 1940's early 50's about the "Douglas - Martin sun screens" (co invented by a lady) that were inexpensive, collected sunlight for electricity and were inexpensive and ubiquitous}}}}
You can now buy PV panels for 25 - 40 cents a watt
The drop in cost is not 10X its more like 100x - 250X

my first PV array was 26sq meters and 1,184 watts and was around $9,000 - $10,000 (50 - 60% subsidized in 1999
my 2nd PV array is 59.9 sq meters and 11,655 watts and $31,000 (with 30% tax credit) ~$2.70/watt

my first PV array made 11% of my needs/monthly use.
my second PV array makes 200% of my needs/monthly use even though it it 10x the size, it makes ~20x due to lowered use, LED's, extremely efficient 30cubic ft refrigerator, computers, monitors etc all way less power required. (we did raise 2 children plus dozens of their friends so used a llt of electricity to do so)

(in 1974 it would have cost $1.18 million or $6.99 million in 1956)

2) Some of us (me for instance) drove, but didnt own EV's as far back as the mid 1970's, but it was a "death trap" ran on PbA (lead acid)batteries (it was a 'leadsled') and could go ~35 mph downhill (~50kph) 1974 ElCar (based on Fiat 500 chassis)
( i never dressed like that)

then had a CitiCar
(mine was blue)
View attachment 458435
and also a deathtrap unless on local roads

winfield... much respect. You sound cool as hell

 

[mspohr]

winfield... much respect. You sound cool as hell

And he looks good in those plaid pants

 

[ladysbff]

And he looks good in those plaid pants

winfield... while it IS rather suspicious that you specifically pointed out that you never dressed like that... consider this... you were supporting the superiority of PLAID far before Elon!

 

[mspohr]

Latest IPPC report doesn't look good

Extreme sea level events ‘will hit once a year by 2050’

Extreme sea level events ‘will hit once a year by 2050’

Extreme sea level events that used to occur once a century will strike every year on many coasts by 2050, no matter whether climate heating emissions are curbed or not, according to a landmark report by the world’s scientists.

But far worse impacts will hit without urgent action to cut fossil fuel emissions, including eventual sea level rise of more than 4 metres in the worst case, an outcome that would redraw the map of the world and harm billions of people.

 

[mspohr]

Greta Thunberg wins 'alternative Nobel' for environmental work

Greta Thunberg wins 'alternative Nobel' for environmental work

The Swedish activist, whose emotional address accusing world leaders of betraying her generation went viral this week, was recognised by the judges of Sweden’s annual Rights Livelihood awards for “inspiring and amplifying political demands for urgent climate action reflecting scientific facts”.

 

[mspohr]

Rewilding will make Britain a rainforest nation again

Rewilding will make Britain a rainforest nation again | George Monbiot

The forests still burn, but the world now looks away. In both the Amazon basin and the rainforests of Indonesia, the world-scorching inferno rages on, already forgotten by most of the media. Intricate living systems, species that took millions of years to evolve, are being incinerated in moments, then replaced with monocultures. Giant plumes of carbon tip us further into climate breakdown. And we’re not even talking about it

Having trashed our own wildlife, our excessive demand for meat, animal feed, timber, minerals and fossil fuels helps lay waste the rest of the world.

 

[nwdiver]

 

[S'toon]

Measurements of Arctic sea ice at the end of this summer are the second lowest since modern record-keeping began in the 1970s, according to newly released preliminary findings.

According to NASA and the National Snow and Ice Data Center (NSIDC), Arctic sea level extent (the area of ocean covered by ice) is tied with 2007 and 2016 for second lowest, just behind the record minimum set in 2012. An analysis of satellite data shows the 2019 minimum extent measured 4.15 million square kilometers (1.6 million square miles) as of last week.

“This year’s minimum sea ice extent shows that there is no sign that the sea ice cover is rebounding,” said Claire Parkinson, a climate change senior scientist at NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center, in a statement. “The long-term trend for Arctic sea ice extent has been definitively downward. But in recent years, the extent is low enough that weather conditions can either make that particular year’s extent into a new record low or keep it within the group of the lowest.”

<snip>

Full article at:
2019 Arctic Sea Ice Levels Tied For Second Lowest Ever Recorded, Preliminary Findings Suggest

 

[dhrivnak]

So what are you willing to give up? We could all go back to living like our ancestors. No real need for smart phones, televisions, dishwashers, washing machines, heating and air conditioning, etc, etc. By the way if you look at the data there are no more super storms, floods and droughts than in the past.

Or you could drive an EV and add solar to your home so you can be energy independent and save a good bit of money to boot.
https://www.amazon.com/Driving-Net-Stories-Carbon-Future/dp/0692143831