SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Then I am happy.
Adding 240v outlets in the Bldg Code is a no brainer. I hope they require a 40 Amp breaker
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Climate Change / Global Warming Discussion
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Adding 240v outlets in the Bldg Code is a no brainer. I hope they require a 40 Amp breaker
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Yeah, you could probably spec a certain gauge wire (6? 8?) and then set the breaker size by distance of the run.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
EU parliament votes for 60% greenhouse gas emissions cut by 2030
EU capitals have been put under pressure to agree to reducing greenhouse gas emissions by 60% by 2030 compared with 1990, after the European parliament voted in favour of an “ambitious” climate law that would also oblige each member state to be carbon neutral by 2050.
EU capitals have been put under pressure to agree to reducing greenhouse gas emissions by 60% by 2030 compared with 1990, after the European parliament voted in favour of an “ambitious” climate law that would also oblige each member state to be carbon neutral by 2050.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Yep
Here is a background article from the Guardian
Inside the climate battle quietly raging about US homes
The journalist thought that the 240v receptacles were there to smooth the path towards EV adoption (and it surely will) but the industry objection is much more likely being pushed by the NG industry who do not want to make it easy to decide on heat pumps.
We environmentalists really need to populate the regulatory and bureaucratic committees that determine so much of the nation's building, transport and infrastructure.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
mspohr
Well-Known Member
There's actually quite a few cities that have banned gas appliances for new construction.
35 cities in California alone and growing quickly.
California's Cities Lead the Way to a Gas-Free Future
This is still a drop compared to existing natural gas houses, but it's a step in the right direction and at least keeps new houses from being basically locked into natural gas appliances.
Besides the climate benefits, there are also significant air quality benefits, too, especially by replacing gas cooktops with electric cooktops (preferably induction).
All electric houses are actually cheaper to build than natural gas houses, especially when you build a neighborhood without natural gas infrastructure.
Big builders will object to any new requirements. Running 3 240V lines (2 EV spots and a range) costs a decent amount when you are building 100 houses. And it probably requires a bigger panel than they would have installed. Is it a good idea? - sure. Will builders fight it - absolutely.
Depending on layout of house, this might be $1000 requirement. (I base this number on a 10 year old build where a 240V line was about $200 - in a LCOLA - so I think $1000 might be optimistic).
Think affordable housing arguments.....
I built 18 months ago - and did these 3 lines but I don't have the cost. I also have heat pumps, HP hot water, and enough solar for negative HERS. It isn't hard or financially painful. The fact that our local utility gave us like $8k for the envelope and $6k for the solar helped.
Depending on layout of house, this might be $1000 requirement. (I base this number on a 10 year old build where a 240V line was about $200 - in a LCOLA - so I think $1000 might be optimistic).
Think affordable housing arguments.....
I built 18 months ago - and did these 3 lines but I don't have the cost. I also have heat pumps, HP hot water, and enough solar for negative HERS. It isn't hard or financially painful. The fact that our local utility gave us like $8k for the envelope and $6k for the solar helped.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
2005 was ~ peak emissions in the USA* -- about 20% higher than 1990
CO2 emissions United States 2019 | Statista
IIRC, 1990 was the baseline year for the Kyoto accord
*Who wudda thunk !?
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Having wired 240V lines in my home and garage I don't understand this. A 240V 50amp breaker is about $10 and 6 gauge wire for a longer run is about $3/ft, probably less for contractors.
How about passive house?
Heating required would be minimal and could be met with electric sources.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
I agree. I've installed 240v outlets for car charging. It's cheap. Less than$100 for materials. In new construction with an electrician, add in 15 or 30 minutes for his time.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
Not an official passivhaus but many of the features. We'll see how it fares this winter. Large windows facing South plus lots of insulation and air tight. (We'll see if we need an air exchange unit)
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Yes!
The tricky part is finding a builder who can build a thick envelope and insulated foundation. I think the common way these days is to build double walls with either 2x4 or 2x6 lumber. The owner ends up with ~ 2x+ the insulation in the walls and when done correctly the studs are staggered to avoid thermal bridging*. I don't think it is hard, but it is something a builder has to learn. I get the impression that most builders know how to build a roof that can take more insulation, and the better builders have learned how to insulate a foundation or basement.
Beyond that, one has to choose a builder who enforces attention to detail so that the seams and windows are not venues for leaks. A new home is probably best outfitted with a whole home HRV; the ducting should be planned and installed before the walls and ceiling are closed off.
In Germany these days (or so I gather), all home building is to these standards so no one thinks it is an exotic demand that should carry an exotic price. No so in the USA ... yet.
Back in the day when I modeled my climate to a passivHaus standard I figured about 35 - 40 R value walls and double for the roof. mspohr will be building in a similar climate to mine.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
I think cheaper renewables have really altered the equation a lot. When solar PV was $5/w it made sense to spend $10k to improve the efficiency of the home another ~10%. Now that panels are <$0.40/w it makes less sense. Instead of spending an additional $5k on triple pane windows you can add ~7kW to your solar array.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Without a doubt, but please don't belittle the passivHaus standard as a 10% improvement. It is up to a 90% reduction in source energy usage compared to the crappy building codes and work we currently enjoy.
I hear you on the triple pane windows ... those German manufactured beauties are expensive. Doubling studs and insulation OTOH is cheap. Adding insulation to the slab is cheap. Installing windows that do not leak around the edges is cheap. A lot of PassivHaus is a matter of proper workmanship and approach to building rather than expensive materials or labor.
The 'more PV !' approach also suffers from corner cases -- those days in a year when it is COLD and the sun is not shining. The typical answer is a parallel fossil system as back-up, either at the home or utility level. The cost of the back-up can be spent on passivHaus components. FWIW though, I am on your side of the fence for my climate: "sloppy" PassivHaus with lots of PV
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SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
In Germany the PassivHaus standard built home is a bit cheaper these days compared to the home built to crappy standard days. It took some years, and as you say, economies of scale to get there. They do without a furnace and expensive ducting which together are big savings. The heating and cooling savings flow entirely to the homeowner.
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