Commercial Crew Transportation Capability (CCtCap) SpaceX and Boeing Developments

[ecarfan]

Doing it at Max-Q sounds like a much better test.

Of course it is. “Test as you fly and fly as you test”.

But maybe since the rocket is not new, and just the capsule is, Boeing has enough data to bridge the difference?

Nope, that’s not it. Since when the Starliner flies the rocket is thrown away, it’s just too damn expensive to do a realistic abort test.

SpaceX, of course, can do the test using a flight-proven booster at a fraction of the cost of a Starliner launch.

 

[Grendal]

From SpaceX:

 

[ICUDoc]

That's a fantastic photo!

 

[e-FTW]

All you need to know about the progress of both companies, test dates, what tests those are, spacecraft readiness, etc.: Boeing and SpaceX preparing for commercial crew abort tests - SpaceNews.com — SpaceNews

Of note:

Setting a launch date for those crewed test flights, though, will depend on the completion of the upcoming tests as well as other work to qualify the vehicles for carrying astronauts. That includes completion of parachute testing, a milestone neither company has achieved according to a chart Lueders showed in her briefing.

That throws out pretty much anything you can extrapolate from the rest of the info in that article. We know nothing about when either crew flight takes off.

 

[Grendal]

 

[Grendal]

Great article from Eric Berger about Monday's Boeing Starliner pad abort test here in New Mexico:
At NASA’s request, Boeing will livestream key Starliner test

 

[e-FTW]

From: Boeing, SpaceX readying for crew capsule abort tests – Spaceflight Now

NASA gave both companies the option to decide whether or not to conduct an in-flight abort test.

Boeing is not doing one.
And their pad-abort test is in the desert, and not at KSC where an actual abort would take place, with a capsule landing in the ocean.

You know, all this focus on parachutes is going to be for nothing if the abort boost itself does not perform as it should.

 

[Nikxice]

It's Nov. 2nd and the news is thin on whether this will actually be SuperDraco static fire test day at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. After reading the article posted by Grendal I'm surprised Bridenstine isn't pushing his "transparency for the taxpayer" edict on SpaceX to livestream this test. Post test video is fine, as long as it's not taken by the same dude that took that grainy video in April of the last test!

 

[ecarfan]

Surely 13 successful tests should be enough, even for NASA...

 

[Grendal]

It's Nov. 2nd and the news is thin on whether this will actually be SuperDraco static fire test day at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. After reading the article posted by Grendal I'm surprised Bridenstine isn't pushing his "transparency for the taxpayer" edict on SpaceX to livestream this test. Post test video is fine, as long as it's not taken by the same dude that took that grainy video in April of the last test!

No doubt SpaceX will livestream the in flight abort test. They've shown a SuperDraco test burn already. Who knows whether they would show a capsule Superdraco test other than the major In Flight Abort test. Maybe on a twitter video...

 

[Grendal]

Boeing Pad Abort Test livestream 8:50 AM EST:

 

[Nikxice]

To use ecarfan's term, was that "pseudo-abort test” really a success? Only 2 out of the 3 main parachutes deployed. Was that the plan or was there a chute failure?
Boeing should think about hiring some SpaceX engineers for their livestream. During the 15 minute hold I had to turn down the volume on Jessica, the Boeing communications person. She maxed out my threshold tolerance for repetitive "Ya Knows".

 

[Cosmacelf]

Gawd, what was that? Unlike SpaceX's lack of bullshit livestreams, this was an exercise at PR spin. Fake, fake, fake.

If the countdown was accurate, the blastoff was late. The astronauts probably would have blown up if it needed to go at that point.

Two of three parachutes. Well, it worked and the landing was survivable, but a trip or two to the chiro would probably have been needed.

And then the announcers saying, hey flawless launch! Don't believe you're lying eyes, listen to our awkward praise! I wonder what they would have said if it had blown up? Good test?

Frankly, this confirms everything I had believed about Boeing. Their company culture is to sweep everything under the rug, just like they did with the 737 Max. I can't believe NASA is giving these bozos a pass.

 

[Nikxice]

If the countdown was accurate, the blastoff was late. The astronauts probably would have blown up if it needed to go at that point.

Excellent point. There should have been zero delay executing that Starliner abort. Hell, if Starliner has a problem on the pad or in-flight during a crewed launch, the clock can't wait for Boeing to hold. Would SpaceX be able to find an extra 15 minutes to delay their in-flight abort test as the F9 approaches Max Q? Add in they only deployed two out of three chutes, I think Boeing and NASA have a problem.

 

[bxr140]

If the countdown was accurate, the blastoff was late.

I wouldn't say that at all. "Zero" does not have to mean flames or movement even for a nominal/planed rocket launch let alone an emergency event like this. For an escape system there's some kind of trigger that will in some way initiate/verify the actual emergency, and that takes time.

 

[Cosmacelf]

I wouldn't say that at all. "Zero" does not have to mean flames or movement even for a nominal/planed rocket launch let alone an emergency event like this. For an escape system there's some kind of trigger that will in some way initiate/verify the actual emergency, and that takes time.

um, if the rocket is exploding beneath you, the delay I witnessed is too long. SpaceX thrusters were quite a bit quicker. Look at the video.

 

[e-FTW]

Starliner flies for the first time, but one of its parachutes failed to deploy

Darn it, this means more delays for the program. Extra Soyuz seat purchases likely to happen... Remember: both companies have to be successful for this program to work. I am a biased super-fan of SpaceX like others here, but I will not rip on Boeing for things we know very little about right now on this test.
Launch delay? Maybe? Who knows if this was not a simple audio-sync issue on the live stream.
And those folks doing live commentary have no clue what actually happened, and they were correct in saying that 2 out of 3 is still acceptable. No, they did not say it was not acceptable for a test, but it would be survivable for a crewed launch abort.

SpaceX just changed the material for the lines of their chutes, so do not be over-confident about the IFA. As Eric Berger said, chutes are hard.

 

[mongo]

And those folks doing live commentary have no clue what actually happened, and they were correct in saying that 2 out of 3 is still acceptable. No, they did not say it was not acceptable for a test, but it would be survivable for a crewed launch abort.

Yeah, it is acceptable. However, if you have a failure under ideal conditions, what is your confidence level?

SpaceX just changed the material for the lines of their chutes, so do not be over-confident about the IFA. As Eric Berger said, chutes are hard.

SpaceX just had 13 back to back tests successfully with their new parachutes (no non-deployments expect last test that was on purpose).
SpaceX completes crucial tests of its Crew Dragon parachutes

 

[Grendal]

As the announcers mentioned, the loss of one parachute is a tolerable failure. The reason for the failure and understanding it will certainly cause delays. And to be fair, remember that the Superdracos for SpaceX's pad abort test didn't fire for the full duration. They were also well within acceptable parameters - meaning the astronauts would have survived - but there was some issue that meant it wasn't a 100% successful test. The failure of one parachute is not good and I agree with others that the delay in the firing was much more troubling if it was unplanned or there isn't a good explanation.

SpaceX will again have a solid lead in the first launch of astronauts with this test. I'd guess that more delays for Boeing is inevitable.

 

[Nikxice]

Found these abort screen shots with speculation as to the point of failure. Credit members at NasaSpaceFlight.com.
Pad Abort Test (PAT) - CST-100 Starliner - White Sands: Nov 4th