Considering to open a legal case vs Tesla UK.

[Maxim]

Last time while everyone in the UK was ducked up (yellow border screen issue, etc.), the VP of Tesla EU has personally asked me to replace the screens in our Teslas in the UK for free, but to hide that from the community.
Long story short - because Tesla has lied a lot to me, no obligations anymore.

When Tesla has sold our cars to us - a lot of "promo" / etc. regarding the FSD.

For sure, no FSD yet in the UK.
Already sold one Tesla with FSD with nearly zero "additional value" (against Musk promises).

I am not going to make any extended discussion.

I believe the Tesla sales were lying to me a lot (public Twitter / etc) about basic functionality that is not working.

Our Teslas (MX and MS) - an impressive list of failures and fixes (multiple times). Everything is confirmed by Tesla.

So, a few questions.

1) Any good specialised lawyer in the UK?
2) Anyone wants to join?

 

[NewbieT]

Is your main issue that the FSD ‘promise’ hasn’t or won’t soon be fulfilled?

What remedy do you want?
FSD beta? Full refund? New car? Car fixed? Cash?

1) try any of the dieselgate firms. They’re experts in car related litigation and group/class litigation.

2) Not for me - I have no FSD.

People bought & buy FSD for different reasons. I nearly went for it originally and can see how someone might feel the future ‘promise’ part hasn’t been fulfilled in the UK. I would certainly feel I wasted my money and be happy with a (part) refund.

The idea might have legs. If you want personal resolution just get on with it. If you want to ‘punish’ Tesla then group litigation will take years, FSD will eventually be delivered in enough capability to dilute the claim and you’ll be arguing over timeframes, Elon’s tweets, what induced the contract, UNECE, etc. Tesla can probably just offer refunds to anyone that asks and the case practically disappears.

 

[Unclepaul]

What most people call "promises" were just predictions.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

Good luck but I think you’ll not get far.

Issues with a cars reliability get dealt with on a car by car basis and you have rights to reject. If those rights weren’t exercised then that’s your choice at the time.

Selling a car with FSD for more money would only hold weight if sold back to Tesla. Tesla have no control over 3rd party transactions. And if you did sell to Tesla you need to be able to demonstrate what Tesla would have offered without FSD.

The only angle I can see is some technicalities on what EAP and FSD features you can expect, and of those advanced summon is the only one advertised in the configurator and not delivered.

If you fall out with a brand then most just walk away, they don’t buy more product.

 

[MovingSouth]

Tesla has been selling cars with FSD for years. If you check when buying, you find it is a promise that you will get FSD at some point. You pay cash for it, so you should get it. Most people seem to keep new cars for 2 or 3 years, so it would be reasonable to expect the product to be delivered at some point over that period. If it isn't you have a claim for non delivery, as for any other produce. It is, after all, a substantial additional charge.

My guess is that if you put in a claim under the small claims procedure (https://www.gov.uk/make-money-claim) then Tesla would pay up quickly as the legal costs on their side would mount. Probably best to claim less than the full cost of FSD, making allowance for what you find does work.

I didn't even consider paying for FSD. I don't trust future promises from Tesla (or any other supplier). Who would pay for an extra on another brand that isn't in the car when delivered? Tesla should charge owners when they deliver as a upgrade cost.

I really like our Model 3, but it's bad enough that features that work on our ZOE (auto lights, wipers, cruise control without phantom braking) aren't as good on the Tesla. I won't even think about FSD when I have to supervise the standard TACC.

I think there a good grounds for a class action, for those who have paid for FSD and not received it.

 

[Wol747]

I certainly think that the FSD "obligation to deliver" will become an issue in the near to medium term.
I don't think FSD as per the original understanding of the title by most buyers is going to happen in the lifetime of cars presently on the road or possibly by any current models. Beta, yes - for those who are willing to act as unpaid and possibly uninsured guinea pigs.
Cards on the table: I plonked down the cash when I bought the car and although I had the above misgivings took Musk's optimism at face value. A couple of years later I am convinced that anything more than level 3 is unachievable. Having said that what has been delivered so far is remarkable: it's just that the socalled "edge" cases - 99% of which are just things that happen daily and are coped with by the average driver without even thinking about them - are never going to be addressed sufficiently to make the vehicles effectively autonomous.
I hope that I'm wrong and I wouldn't go so far as to say I'll eat my car if I am, but.....

 

[Sean.]

Vote with your wallet - don’t hand the chequebook to the lawyers.

 

[Sean.]

I’m already party to a vehicle class action, that is pretty well known. Don’t intend to embark on another.

Just buy another car and be happy (hopefully)

 

[HenryT]

My guess is that if you put in a claim under the small claims procedure (https://www.gov.uk/make-money-claim) then Tesla would pay up quickly as the legal costs on their side would mount. Probably best to claim less than the full cost of FSD, making allowance for what you find does work.

My guess is they wouldn't pay up and would fight vigorously.

They won't want the reputational hit, nor would they want to open themselves to other claims.

 

[Liquidv]

The common man vs a trillian dollar company.....

David vs Goliath

 

[NISFAN]

Bit of a rambling post with no clear cut reason for the lawsuit or what the positions of the two parties are at present, so not easy to answer…

But if you are unhappy with the functionality of FSD you would need to start by asking the supplier formally for a refund for the feature that does not meet the claims made during sale.

If approved, you get your money back and NFA needed.

If this is rejected, you could start a small claims action to the value of a refund. The defendant either grants the refund to avoid further legal action, or defends. It’s highly unlikely the defendant would want to go “all the way” in this process, as a loss could leave them open to a deluge of similar claims (the outcome of a small claims court process is less predictable than a higher court), but most likely they will test the mettle of the claimant by starting a defence.

 

[pgkevet]

Why does this thread start off sounding like a poorly syntaxed troll farm post?

I also wondered about the quality of the OP's original message and the Internet allows true motives to reman hidden.
Nevertheless, the enthusiastic claims and promises from Elon have not shown any serious fruition and I feel hoodwinked into parting with extra dosh for FSD that is actually dangerous unless one concentrates more than needed for manual driving. I go back to claims that the car will come out of the garage and park itself by the front door ready for your daily commute, that you can summon it to un-park itself and meet you at the shopfront, that Robotaxis will be running by the end of 2020 and one can earn money with one’s own car on the fleet. Even without believing the full spectrum of promises, one would expect the thing to be performing way better than it does. Even simple claims that the car is 'feature complete' fall down when he starts taking radar away and cameras report themselves blinded.
However, there is that mass of enthusiasts with almost reverent worship promoting the standard nonsense about how Elon always delivers eventually etc that he has on his side. I doubt any class action over FSD would win realistic value because he can easily show that he is continuing to fiddle with the software - i.e. trying to get it to work and the arguments over 'value' would keep lawyers earning for years.
I agree with comments that Tesla won't get FSD working UK in the lifetime of my car.

 

[Plagued]

I 100% think Tesla should be made accountable for the FSD "promise" that has made little to no progress in europe. If the software belonged to the customer and not the car, so you could transfer it, then I wouldn't have an issue. I've parted with cash for things on kickstarter/indigiogo that have been 4 years late, but I eventually got them, so I don't have an issue with paying up front for things that are in development, but only if you actually get them rather than the person that bought your car 2 years ago.
A lot of people will only keep a car for 3-4 years, And being repeatedly told that FSD will be out soon and that you'd better buy now before the price sky rockets only to find that the price has barely changed 3 years later and there's still little more than a slightly useless parking system, a mostly useless summon system and a minor improvement to auto pilot with lane changes.
The resale value is reflective, as most people think it's a pointless upgrade the resale value is low rather than high as promised. And yes you can sell back to Tesla but the minute the 3 came out tesla dropped the trade in values massively. My brother's X dropped 20k in "value" in two months between valuations. Meaning he was much better off selling through someone else.

 

[Neilio]

I'm not sure how a FSD argument would work to be honest. I bought the product knowing it didn't exist in it's complete form but was planned to be rolled out. Crucially when I bought it there was never a date for when full functionality would be. So essentially I bought a placeholder for something that will happen in the future. If full self drive is cancelled, or it turns out it needs new hardware, than I'll be asking for a refund but at the moment I've got what I paid for, even if that is essentially nothing.

 

[NewbieT]

It also depends on what Tesla said when you bought FSD. In Dec 2019 city streets was “Coming later this year”. Pics below. If you buy FSD today you’ll find some more modest wording. Some people will have a legitimate argument here with Tesla but not everyone.

 

[speedyranger74]

It also depends on what Tesla said when you bought FSD. In Dec 2019 city streets was “Coming later this year”. Pics below. If you buy FSD today you’ll find some more modest wording. Some people will have a legitimate argument here with Tesla but not everyone.

View attachment 737566View attachment 737568View attachment 737569

January-March 2020 was the same.

 

[Andywil]

January-March 2020 was the same.

I suspect that Tesla will argue that it's legislation in Europe & UK that is the problem as fsd is far more advanced in USA.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

I suspect that Tesla will argue that it's legislation in Europe & UK that is the problem as fsd is far more advanced in USA.

That’s a bit of a myth with the exception of the very few people on the latest pilot and who have effectively passed a Tesla driving test. The legislation makes little difference here in practice and it’s been discussed on this form before.

But either way, if you’ve not got the legal permission for customers to use the product then you shouldn’t sell it.

 

[Andywil]

You mean like electric scooters!

 

[jjrandorin]

Reminder to everyone commenting in this thread that this OP specifically said:

I am not going to make any extended discussion.

So, in effect, they lobbed this post in here for you all to discuss, and are telling you that fact in the first post.