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[UK] Help with legal case against Tesla over USS

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USS have limitations. Vision has limitations. Just because theyā€™re not the same limitations doesnā€™t mean youā€™ve got a case.

A judge/magistrate may interpret Section 9, especially (3a) differently to you.

Consumer Rights Act 2015 said:
9(3a)fitness for all the purposes for which goods of that kind are usually supplied;

 
Mod comment : closing the other thread about trading standards and USS doesn't mean the argument can just move here.

The thread to discuss the good and the bad on USS, and the performance or not thereof is this one:


This thread is about supporting a legal case. If you disagree with the legal case in principle, then you are unlikely to be able to offer any help. If you're an expert at law and disagree with the case and can provide compelling arguments as to why it does not stand a chance, those arguments are welcome.
 
A judge/magistrate may interpret Section 9, especially (3a) differently to you.



I agree there may be an angle on not being fit for purpose. Harder to argue than the start of this thread when Tesla simply hadnā€™t provided anything. Itā€™s also not the same argument as debating the equivalence of USS vs Vision which was my point.
 
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Why?

Itā€™s demonstrably crap and thereā€™s tonnes of evidence.

In their own words: ā€˜We will reinstate it when it achieves parity with USSā€™

šŸ˜†šŸ˜†šŸ˜†

They can point to both advantages (e.g. curb detection) and disadvantages over vision, and argue overall parity. They can point to positive as well as negative user reviews online. It's firmly somewhere in the realm of subjective opinion now, when before it was black and white. Not saying there's no case now, just that it's become vastly harder to argue now.
 
They can point to both advantages (e.g. curb detection) and disadvantages over vision, and argue overall parity. They can point to positive as well as negative user reviews online. It's firmly somewhere in the realm of subjective opinion now, when before it was black and white. Not saying there's no case now, just that it's become vastly harder to argue now.
Yes, the water is now merky, unless you paid for EAP or FSD when they still haven't rolled out Auto park, summon or (for what its worth) smart summon.
 
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They can point to both advantages (e.g. curb detection) and disadvantages over vision, and argue overall parity. They can point to positive as well as negative user reviews online. It's firmly somewhere in the realm of subjective opinion now, when before it was black and white. Not saying there's no case now, just that it's become vastly harder to argue now.

I agree it may mean they now have 'some' kind of argument but I'd be pretty confident that anyone with half a brain could put together a comprehensive take down of TV with very little effort.

So vastly more difficult - don't think so.
 
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I think if you argue that X months between buying the car and getting TVPA was too long as per the OP's case, then you might have a chance.

I'm pretty sure the judge is not going to be looking at Youtube videos to make a determination. IMHO you'd need some sort of expert opinion to make the case for you.
 
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Vertical integration šŸ˜…
 
Is this a serious reply?
If youā€™d quoted the whole paragraph it would have been better. The point made seems very pertinent now the feature exists.

If the judge accepted evidence of poor performance form YouTube from, the defence would simply offer other videos of people claiming to be happy. They would also offer YouTube videos of USS parking sensors getting it wrong, they only need a couple of examples. You need a subject matter expert to quantify the performance on a scientific basis, maybe quoting relevant type approval or other relevant standards etc and the short falls. Tesla would in reply wheel out there own evidence such as NCAP safety reports and other formal testing to at least muddy the water.
 
If the judge accepted evidence of poor performance form YouTube from, the defence would simply offer other videos of people claiming to be happy. They would also offer YouTube videos of USS parking sensors getting it wrong, they only need a couple of examples. You need a subject matter expert to quantify the performance on a scientific basis, maybe quoting relevant type approval or other relevant standards etc and the short falls. Tesla would in reply wheel out there own evidence such as NCAP safety reports and other formal testing to at least muddy the water.

The goods only need to be of quality that an ordinary person would reasonably expect them to be/perform. No need for any expert witness/scientific statement etc.

2)The quality of goods is satisfactory if they meet the standard that a reasonable person would consider satisfactory, taking account ofā€”

(a)any description of the goods,

(b)the price or other consideration for the goods (if relevant), and

(c)all the other relevant circumstances (see subsection (5)).

(3)The quality of goods includes their state and condition; and the following aspects (among others) are in appropriate cases aspects of the quality of goodsā€”

(a)fitness for all the purposes for which goods of that kind are usually supplied;

(b)appearance and finish;

(c)freedom from minor defects;

(d)safety;

(e)durability.
 
The goods only need to be of quality that an ordinary person would reasonably expect them to be/perform. No need for any expert witness/scientific statement etc.
A ā€œordinary personā€ does rule out most YouTubers, thereā€™s nothing ordinary, normal or reasonable about them or their views :), but 8 take your point, let me explain my thinking.

I agree it appears to be rubbish at times, Iā€™ve personally not used it, but the easiest challenge was the absence of the feature, now it exists Iā€™d have thought you need to substantiate the claim over itā€™s performance and not just express an opinion.

Iā€™m playing devils advocate here but letā€™s take the points

a)any description of the goods,

- parking sensor, the absence was a slam dunk, the performance is under the later bullets

(b)the price or other consideration for the goods (if relevant), and

- thereā€™s no broken out price other than EAP and FSD. Those features have a much easier case to prove, especially FSD.
- if you take the overall vehicle price you then look at comparable priced cars. They all say donā€™t rely on it, the expectation is argued that itā€™s not foolproof. The counter argument is the expectation is unreasonable. An expert would be able to quantify expectations better and go through the detail
- they expressly reserve the right to alter the product within the material definition of the car, and open up a whole new argument over the extent of whatā€™s permissible

(c)all the other relevant circumstances (see subsection (5)).

(3)The quality of goods includes their state and condition; and the following aspects (among others) are in appropriate cases aspects of the quality of goodsā€”

(a)fitness for all the purposes for which goods of that kind are usually supplied;

- so this is the one on performance. Not withstanding the disclaimers, the defence would provide examples where it works. Theyā€™re also likely to be able to provide examples where it works better than USS (curbs) so their argument would be itā€™s just different.
- again an expert would be able to contextually layout the disclaimers, use case scenarios, relative performance etc. To claim you need to show more than it sometimes doesnā€™t work, but that itā€™s materially worse.

So the rebuttal, thatā€™s assuming they turn up, would be along the lines of:
- the feature exists
- it has no standalone value in the context of the car, itā€™s not an option (different arguments for EAP)
- in some situations itā€™s better than USS (theyā€™ll ignore where itā€™s worse)
- no performing guarantees were provided, and they reserve the right to make changes
- all such system by all manufacturers advise not to rely on it, itā€™s therefore not reasonable to assume it wonā€™t make mistakes
- the expectations are therefore unreasonable

As I say, Iā€™m not accepting the arguments mitigate what appears to be happening, only that the training in my work life says you need to look at the opposition arguments as much as your own and address each of those.
 
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Also playing devils advocate, one would not normally expect parking sensor functionality to recognise kerbs (donā€™t get me wrong, thatā€™s probably a useful feature which some other vehicles handle in other ways ie BEV) so it doing something that you might not expect probably does not counter the performance that you would expect it to reliably handle such as detecting a wall, garage door, another car or a person although some of these may be shown by other forms although that does not provide audible warning that many might expect from this type of functionality.

When I park (when I worked up in London I use to park in spaces a couple of inches longer than the car without hitting anything so I am more than capable of parallel parking in tight spaces), mirrors and windows are my primary point of reference, but audible parking tones are a useful secondary assistance to warn you that you might have missed something, cannot see something (ie darkness) or something just wandered into a blind spot that you were not monitoring at that point in time. I personally would expect that functionality to be able to be relied on to the same level as any other car, or Teslas own USS version.
 
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Also playing devils advocate, one would not normally expect parking sensor functionality to recognise kerbs (donā€™t get me wrong, thatā€™s probably a useful feature which some other vehicles handle in other ways ie BEV) so it doing something that you might not expect probably does not counter the performance that you would expect it to reliably handle such as detecting a wall, garage door, another car or a person although some of these may be shown by other forms although that does not provide audible warning that many might expect from this type of functionality.

When I park (when I worked up in London I use to park in spaces a couple of inches longer than the car without hitting anything so I am more than capable of parallel parking in tight spaces), mirrors and windows are my primary point of reference, but audible parking tones are a useful secondary assistance to warn you that you might have missed something, cannot see something (ie darkness) or something just wandered into a blind spot that you were not monitoring at that point in time. I personally would expect that functionality to be able to be relied on to the same level as any other car, or Teslas own USS version.

Also playing devil's advocate - were not arguing about parking sensors here, we're arguing about a feature called park assist that helps you park. They absolutely can use things like curb detection and being able to see the sides rather than only back and front as improvements over the previous system to paint a picture that there are pros and cons but overall it's comparable - i.e. parity. Also they can point out how the new system will be improved over time while the old system is limited by its hardware.

Many of us have seen reviews online and come to the opinion TV park assist is garbage, but even here there are plenty praising it too. It will be a nightmare to try and prove to a judge it is objectively worse and not even fit for purpose. Good luck! I'd be interested to here from the OP @RafP .
 
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