[UK] Help with legal case against Tesla over USS

[MrBadger]

Also playing devil's advocate - were not arguing about parking sensors here, we're arguing about a feature called park assist that helps you park.

Park assist is the Tesla name for traditional parking sensor functionality. It may display things a bit different on screen than say red and yellow zoned front and back lines on some other cars, but it’s basically the same function. Also not to be confused with auto park.

 

[LiamPope]

Park assist is the Tesla name for traditional parking sensor functionality. It may display things a bit different on screen than say red and yellow zoned front and back lines on some other cars, but it’s basically the same function. Also not to be confused with auto park.

Sure but I don't think that helps and respectfully disagree with your take. You're suggesting that in some potential courtroom assessment of if TV park assist has achieved performance parity with the old version, and/or if it is fit for the purpose advertised, that the improvements of the TV version, such as curb detection and being able to see all around the vehicle somehow won't count in Tesla's favour because people don't expect that of typical USS systems. I just don't see it going that way at all!

Park Assist is advertised as a feature that alerts the driver to objects in close proximity to the vehicle at low speeds to assist with parking. They can easily argue being able to see 360 degrees and detect curbs are valuable improvements of the TV system compared to the old system and should be taken into account along with its shortcomings. Shortcomings that will of course improve over time.

I think if the new system didn't do anything better there'd still be something of a case, but imho, since it is now a matter of pros and cons with positive and negative customer feedback, any court case on this has close to zero chance. But I'm no lawyer!

 

[init6]

Is this a serious reply?

No, that's only part of my reply.
Thankfully George et al read all of my reply and have confirmed my point.

As an aside, does any other manufacturer's USS give a measured distance rather than just an audible guide?

 

[Durzel]

MG4 does, in centimetres for what it's worth. Haven't checked accuracy but it seems to start giving distances at 1.25m or so.

 

[Ratch]

If you’d quoted the whole paragraph it would have been better. The point made seems very pertinent now the feature exists.

If the judge accepted evidence of poor performance form YouTube from, the defence would simply offer other videos of people claiming to be happy. They would also offer YouTube videos of USS parking sensors getting it wrong, they only need a couple of examples. You need a subject matter expert to quantify the performance on a scientific basis, maybe quoting relevant type approval or other relevant standards etc and the short falls. Tesla would in reply wheel out there own evidence such as NCAP safety reports and other formal testing to at least muddy the water.

@init6

Nowhere did I say the way to go about it would be to just chuck some YT vids at the judge. Patronising to suggest anyone would go about a serious claim in this way.

Ironically, YT vids would be a perfectly adequate source as there are enough people on there who are hardcore testers / journalists long established in the field - in other words - experts.

Also, I'd like to see any videos or reviews that give TV a glowing report or even a thumbs up.

It's about PARITY. Not what TV can do well / different or how much USS fails (it hardly ever does). It is not comaprable and those are facts.

 

[init6]

What evidence are you offering?

 

[hooty]

Just Won a Small Claims Case Against Tesla – A Triumph for Autopark Failure Victims!

I am writing this post in an exultant mood today because I've just emerged victorious from a small claims court battle against none other than Tesla! Last year, I faced an unfortunate incident. My Tesla Model 3, while using the Autopark feature, got involved in a fender bender. I was under the...

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[Cardo]

Just Won a Small Claims Case Against Tesla – A Triumph for Autopark Failure Victims!

I am writing this post in an exultant mood today because I've just emerged victorious from a small claims court battle against none other than Tesla! Last year, I faced an unfortunate incident. My Tesla Model 3, while using the Autopark feature, got involved in a fender bender. I was under the...

teslamotorsclub.com

Interesting, though this appears to have happened in the US and the details are rather murky. I’m not surprised by the scepticism of some of the replies. Would be interesting to see the official judgement as this should be a public record.

 

[LiamPope]

Yeah sounds almost unbelievable you could win a case against an auto parking fender bender just because you believed the advanced tech would do everything perfectly, when the manual clearly spells out the limitations and driver's responsibilities. Tesla defense sounds comically bad and the judge's rebuke of Tesla doesn't sound like anything a judge would actually say! Really depends on the specific details which were not given, but very interesting if true, and worrying for Tesla and any other automaker!

 

[Durzel]

Small claims don't set precedent, so you could take the same case to court 10 times and flip a coin as to which ones go against you and which ones you win.

It seems in this instance the judge took a matter-of-fact view of the fact Tesla call it "Autopark" and decided against them based on that. Another might be more sympathetic to them and/or decide that the customer being advised that these features are all beta was "god enough".

 

[init6]

Is autopark available for non-USS cars now? Or was this 'fender bender' in a USS equipped car?

Getting back to this thread, that's one way of achieving parity between USS and non-USS cars

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

Is autopark available for non-USS cars now? Or was this 'fender bender' in a USS equipped car?

Getting back to this thread, that's one way of achieving parity between USS and non-USS cars

Still don't think its active, the best you get is the line that sometimes says you've already driven through a wall when you haven't which I guess is a nice change from the law suit where it seem to tell you you haven't driven through a wall when you have.

 

[NewbieT]

Small claims don't set precedent, so you could take the same case to court 10 times and flip a coin as to which ones go against you and which ones you win.

It seems in this instance the judge took a matter-of-fact view of the fact Tesla call it "Autopark" and decided against them based on that. Another might be more sympathetic to them and/or decide that the customer being advised that these features are all beta was "god enough".

A judge thinks Beta is the second letter of the Greek alphabet so checks a dictionary and chooses a definition. Does it help? Not sure it helps Tesla or a claimant. It’s on sale so it can’t be Beta. Or it’s Beta/’Test’ so you can’t have it?

• used to describe a product or systemthat is at the second stage of development and that is being testedby a few customers before it is offeredfor sale:
  
  
  
  
• BRITISH
  a second-classmark given for a piece of work or an examination paper.
  
  
  
  
  
  

 

[spdpsba]

A judge thinks Beta is the second letter of the Greek alphabet so checks a dictionary and chooses a definition. Does it help? Not sure it helps Tesla or a claimant. It’s on sale so it can’t be Beta. Or it’s Beta/’Test’ so you can’t have it?

• used to describe a product or systemthat is at the second stage of development and that is being testedby a few customers before it is offeredfor sale:
  
  
  
  
• BRITISH
  a second-classmark given for a piece of work or an examination paper.
  
  
  
  
  

Definition of beta in software is slightly different to beta in finance or beta as in merriam Webster dictionary.

Definition of beta in software: A pre-release of software that is given out to a large group of users to try under real conditions. Beta versions have gone through alpha testing in-house and are generally fairly close in look, feel and function to the final product; however, design changes often occur as a result. So it is not all the same.

 

[Whyone]

Given beta software is undergoing a secondary phase of testing, can it categorically be said to have achieved 'performance parity' with other software with the same functionality but a fundamentally different basis?

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

Given beta software is undergoing a secondary phase of testing, can it categorically be said to have achieved 'performance parity' with other software with the same functionality but a fundamentally different basis?

I’d argue beta testing is when you’re happy in test lab situation that it works fine and you’re looking for the real world gremlins that regular testing doesn’t pick up, typically edge cases.

So performance parity in the lab should have been achieved before being beta released, I’m very doubtful that was the case though, or if it was it was a contrived case

 

[NewbieT]

But what does ‘Beta’ mean to the average consumer who thinks that everything sold must meet minimum gov standards so must be OK?

 

[Whyone]

I’d argue beta testing is when you’re happy in test lab situation that it works fine and you’re looking for the real world gremlins that regular testing doesn’t pick up, typically edge cases.

So performance parity in the lab should have been achieved before being beta released, I’m very doubtful that was the case though, or if it was it was a contrived case

Yep, I his would be a rational persons view I believe.

I have asked Tesla Customer Resolutions (several times!) what basis was used to make the assertion that Vision-based Park Assist has achieved 'performance parity' with the USS system...they refused to be drawn and eventually told me to go away as they wouldn't be taking to me any more!

 

[WannabeOwner]

But what does ‘Beta’ mean to the average consumer who thinks that everything sold must meet minimum gov standards so must be OK?

I think the interpretation, for those items where this is applicable,. depends on the definition of what Beta means to Tesla, which was displayed on the car dash, and required "OK" confirmation before it was enabled.

I had to OK that for FSD (and some other software features) ... but of course not for USS removal

 

[init6]

I think the interpretation, for those items where this is applicable,. depends on the definition of what Beta means to Tesla, which was displayed on the car dash, and required "OK" confirmation before it was enabled.

There's a big list of limitations in the manual:

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_gb/GUID-E5FF5E84-6AAC-43E6-B7ED-EC1E9AEB17B7.html

With most features having this handy paragraph:

The list above does not represent an exhaustive list of situations that may interfere with proper operation of Traffic-Aware Cruise Control. Traffic-Aware Cruise Control can cancel unexpectedly at any time for unforeseen reasons. Always watch the road in front of you and stay prepared to take appropriate action. It is the driver's responsibility to be in control of Model 3 at all times.

I had to OK that for FSD (and some other software features) ... but of course not for USS removal

When was USS removed from your car? I thought it was only new cars that had no USS?