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Regarding HCQ + Z pack.
My dad is a cardiologist as well, although I come from the moron-cave.
I saw mentioned here that there is a cardiologist on the forum concerned about HCQ? It’s bullshit.
What can cause arrhythmia is the Z Pack. Show me a proper study WITH control group saying otherwise.ill gladly get an experts opinion on it maximum by tomorrow when we go to the beach and enjoy life. They prescribe it to any bacterial respiratory disease since forever. And The probabilities are still so widely known and small that it’s normal that you give Z Pack to these respiratory patients and NOT even do a ECG scan. Why would that be?
I have no idea if it’s effective to treat CV19 but while talking to my dad about this matter he says it’s strange people are worrying about hearth related problems to something that’s so widely studied already.

Widespread (what I call intellectually lazy) reflexive prescription of antibiotics, as well as the 'Big Food' insertion of these dangerous and powerful drugs into food stocks is part of the reason why we are losing control over infectious disease. So the practice you are talking about is often times without confirmation that the pathogen is in fact bacterial - if so, not a good practice.
 
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EDIT - As a "paid pharma troll" I must not be very good at my job. You know, for pointing out that Remdesivir isn't the fountain of youth and all. :rolleyes:

Okay, gold standard. The sheep that listen to you are aren't good enough at reading to see how often you contradict yourself. I'm guessing that is why you have like 100 posts per day. It doesn't sound like you were "good" at any of your previous "jobs" either.
 
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Widespread (what I call intellectually lazy) reflexive prescription of antibiotics, as well as the 'Big Food' insertion of these dangerous and powerful drugs into food stocks is part of the reason why we are losing control over infectious disease. So the practice you are talking about is often times without confirmation that the pathogen is in fact bacterial not a good practice.

This is true but it is besides the point he is making. It is prescribed like candy but again that isn't his point, clearly. Actually, it further strengthens it. It is completely misused on a large scale basis with minimal safety concerns.
 
Do you live on planet earth? Are you capable of doing any research on your own? You seem clueless about alot.

This is clear evidence of the old psychoanalytic maxim that projection is a primitive defense and is more typically associated with the far end the character disorder spectrum. This means stuff like schizoid, narcissistic, sociopathic, borderline, paranoid, and other severe forms of character disorder. There's been debate about whether projection is necessarily diagnostic of that end of the personality Spectrum, but your posts which are full of projection, seem to be evidence for the default position in classic literature. At least you are making a contribution to the debate and to the body of scientific literature. Congratulations random Johnny! I took you off ignore just to see if it was you that was trolling The Forum. Sure enough it was you. Back on ignore. Good luck random Johnny. I hope you get a good therapist.
 
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This is true but it is besides the point he is making. It is prescribed like candy but again that isn't his point, clearly. Actually, it further strengthens it. It is completely misused on a large scale basis with minimal safety concerns.
Exactly, it was never a concern and we have decades of history to analise Both HCQ and Z-Pack. Z-pack has a known chance of making this arrythmia(i can get the technicals on this if anione is *actually* interested), but the probability is so low that people are not even checked with an ECG when they get it. Putting HCQ on the same conversation is just deceiving. You have tons of Lupus patients with lifelong treatments and this is not a concern.
Put the effort into actually trying to understand if this works for CV19 or not. Me not being an American, and caring 0 for American politics makes it easy to see whats the reason people are trying really hard to disprove it.
 
gr2.gif
Exactly, it was never a concern and we have decades of history to analise Both HCQ and Z-Pack. Z-pack has a known chance of making this arrythmia(i can get the technicals on this if anione is *actually* interested), but the probability is so low that people are not even checked with an ECG when they get it. Putting HCQ on the same conversation is just deceiving. You have tons of Lupus patients with lifelong treatments and this is not a concern.
Put the effort into actually trying to understand if this works for CV19 or not. Me not being an American, and caring 0 for American politics makes it easy to see whats the reason people are trying really hard to disprove it.

You are simply uncanny in your ability to make patently and grotesquely unscientific and wrong statements. Nobody has an investment in "disproving that hydroxychloroquine works". The investment is in finding out whether or not it works, and the data has steadily accumulated both in relationship to severely ill patients and now in relationship to combinations with macrolides that the substance simply is not protective and probably (high probability) is harmful. I'm reposting the graphic above in case your surfing through this thread has been superficial and you somehow missed it. You really are clueless about what constitutes adequate scientific data. Clueless. And like some other people on the forum who are simply intoxicated with their own ideological Notions, no amount of contravening data gives you pause or makes you re-examine your assumptions. This of course is the antithesis of a scientific attitude and method. And yet you regard yourself as some kind of paragon in relationship to science - a favorable view of yourself in this domain that I'm quite confident a review of your resume would not support.

Please take a hard look at yourself in relationship to science. You are not a friend of Science and science is not a friend to you either.

PS please get a spelling checker and while you're at it a grammar checker. It's tough enough reading your posts which are full of nonsense but are also agrammatic and full of spelling errors. It's a triple whammy to those of us who are used to reading cogent scientific material.
 
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Exactly, it was never a concern and we have decades of history to analise Both HCQ and Z-Pack. Z-pack has a known chance of making this arrythmia(i can get the technicals on this if anione is *actually* interested), but the probability is so low that people are not even checked with an ECG when they get it. Putting HCQ on the same conversation is just deceiving. You have tons of Lupus patients with lifelong treatments and this is not a concern.
Put the effort into actually trying to understand if this works for CV19 or not. Me not being an American, and caring 0 for American politics makes it easy to see whats the reason people are trying really hard to disprove it.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31180-6/fulltext

96,000 patients from 671 hospitals. 15,000+ treated HCQ or HCQ+AZ.

8% on HCQ +/- AZ develop a heart arrhythmia. Only 0.3% of the control group develops an arrhythmia.

How do you explain away that data set? It's more than 10X larger than all other datasets out there COMBINED.
 
Exactly, it was never a concern and we have decades of history to analise Both HCQ and Z-Pack. Z-pack has a known chance of making this arrythmia(i can get the technicals on this if anione is *actually* interested), but the probability is so low that people are not even checked with an ECG when they get it. Putting HCQ on the same conversation is just deceiving. You have tons of Lupus patients with lifelong treatments and this is not a concern.
Put the effort into actually trying to understand if this works for CV19 or not. Me not being an American, and caring 0 for American politics makes it easy to see whats the reason people are trying really hard to disprove it.


To further make the point (last 4 on this figure):
gr3.gif


With or without a macrolide (i.e. azithro) is BAD. REALLY BAD Hazard Ratio.
 
This is clear evidence of the old psychoanalytic maxim that projection is a primitive defense and is more typically associated with the far end the character disorder spectrum. This means stuff like schizoid, narcissistic, sociopathic, borderline, paranoid, and other severe forms of character disorder. There's been debate about whether projection is necessarily diagnostic of that end of the personality Spectrum, but your posts which are full of projection, seem to be evidence for the default position in classic literature. At least you are making a contribution to the debate and to the body of scientific literature. Congratulations random Johnny! I took you off ignore just to see if it was you that was trolling The Forum. Sure enough it was you. Back on ignore. Good luck random Johnny. I hope you get a good therapist.

Coming from a shrink that calls everyone with a dissenting opinion an "idiot" or "moron". Who exhibits passive aggressive behavior on a daily basis. Let me remind everyone. Shrinks are the craziest of the crazies.

Why Shrinks Have Problems
 
You got two so called MDs here. One not practicing and the other is a shrink. They post 100s of times per day on a coronavirus tsla forum. Nope, not a physician forum or ID forum. Just happen to be here.

I know alot of docs and, trust me, they don't spend this much time on an internet forum. Believe whatever you want but docs are not consulting layman on any forum day in and day out.

Apparently, I really hit a nerve calling out Duke as big pharma troll. Why so mad you gotta put me on ignore? He claimed many threads back he is a Gilead shareholder and up till his recent, and convenient, post he has been pumping it as the gold standard. Did I get mad when someone called me a russian troll earlier? Ofcourse not. Why? Because it is preposterous.
 
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Do you live on planet earth? Are you capable of doing any research on your own? You seem clueless about alot.
I did some research on the internet and found out that COVID-19 is actually caused by 5G cellular technology. Since I design 5G chips I guess this means that I'm part of the conspiracy without even being aware! I may be gullible but at least I'm making money. :D

P.S. I looked back at your post history and found that you've never even attempted to do anything but troll so sadly I've put you on ignore. Hopefully when you finally share the truth about COVID-19 I'll be able to find out from another source.
 
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I did some research on the internet and found out that COVID-19 is actually caused by 5G cellular technology. Since I design 5G chips I guess this means that I'm part of the conspiracy without even being aware! At least I'm making money. :D

It is quite obvious that you have a limited understanding of healthcare in general. That is okay but it makes you extra gullible.
 
But what you are arguing, without perhaps realizing it, is simply for evidence that any ionophore combined with zinc, may be protective, and broadly so in relationship to many viruses. And that may be quite true in COVID19, although the RCT proof is still absent. But let's presume that it's still true. There is a HUGE catch in all this. For example, Quercetin, EGCG (principal polyphenolic in green tea) and several other compounds may promote this effect WITHOUT REMOTELY THE TOXICITY OF HCQ!! The benefit you are mentally accruing to HCQ may be therefore in some sense unmerited.

While we are on the subject of protection, keeping Vit D levels above 30 and probably even above 40 may have significant effects in terms of buffering disease severity and may explain some of the vulnerability of dark skinned individuals, and ironically Spain and Italy where vitamin D deficiency is more widespread, whereas there is more supplementation of vitamin D in northern latitude European countries which have shown significantly less mortality per capita. This is an example of a protective strategy that has far fewer downsides also then hydroxychloroquine and other upsides as well. In that sense it meets an optimal standard in terms of risk/benefit ratio meaning close to zero risk and possible to probable substantial benefits. We know from lots of other research that vitamin D buffers severity in relationship to other respiratory illnesses, and for folks looking for the latest on this see med cram vitamin D for video, and this link for Lancet review.

I appreciate that you're trying to think prophylactically and in terms of various bioprotective strategies. Here is one (Supplementation with vitamin D, quercetin, EGCG and zinc) with far better dividends In terms of overall risk-benefit ratio than hydroxychloroquine.

Yes, on Wednesday @N5329K suggested quercetin as a possible substitute for hydroxychloroquine to allow zinc to have access to the cells. Since zinc and quercetin are both safe when the zinc is kept below toxic levels, it'd be worth a try to see how much benefit is gained by the quercetin + zinc combo. I'm not in love with HCQ, and if a safer ingredient that serves a similar purpose is found, dumping HCQ for that alternative would be reasonable.

If someone is using HCQ prophylactically, the addition of zinc makes tremendous sense. Any study of prophylactic use of HCQ should include an arm that takes zinc. It's possible those taking HCQ alone (Potus?) are risking the downsides of HCQ without achieving the protection that MIGHT be provided if zinc was added to the effort.

As for vitamin D, might as well. Here in Hawaii I make a point to generate lots of natural Vitamin D, I supplement with quercetin and have taken Cold-eze zinc lozenges at first indication of a sore throat for many years. From my anecdotal experience, this combination has worked well to lessen the punch of viruses. The quercetin was a recent addition to my regiment.
 
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Do you have some vested interest in this or something? What is with the obsession?

Looking to save lives, good fellow. If another substance can be combined with zinc to produce a similarly effective protection, I'm good with dumping HCQ for that other substance. What motivates me is that I saw suggestions of when HCQ was effective and when it wasn't. When combined with zinc and delivered early in the disease, it appears to provide positive results. Given once the patient has entered the ICU, advantages are lost and the Lancet article strongly suggests the results of giving HCQ+azithromycin to an ICU patient with COVID19 actually increases morbidity, not so much specifically for that scenario but broad use of HCQ, which I believe is divided into positive effects when delivered early with zinc and negative effects when delivered late or without zinc. I hope the latest Lancet article will be helpful in getting HCQ+azithromycin no longer considered for patients already in the ICU. I also hope we see further testing with HCQ+zinc and safer gateway drugs to the cells+zinc. It looks like there's good results possible.
 
By the way that's a Delta of 300% so that's not exactly a helpful statement. Was he talking about the differences between various States? Because I'm sure there are states where the penetration is actually under 5% and then there's New York where it looks like it's probably at least overall 15%. And a fatality rate of 0.3% is roughly where New York City is right now with only partial infection penetration (20-25%) so that's wildly optimistic. If a quarter of New York City has been infected, that means infection fatality rate is likely 4 * 0.3%. If that's what he's saying I think that becomes part of concerning evidence that Osterholm is outside the lines of what the science really supports. And I say that with great caution because I'm sure he knows a boatload more about infectious disease than I do. Orders of magnitude more, but that's why his statements are concerning both about masks and now about IFR.

Osterholm is on TV/radio almost non-stop these days, not sure how much time he has for reading. I saw him say the White House was using the wrong kind of test - they should use a PCR test instead of the Abbott test, lol.

All evidence says 5% or less of the US has been infected. Serology studies outside of hotspots like NYC and Boston all come in under 5%, usually around 1-3%. The exception was a Miami study at 6% positive, but their test produced 10% false positives in the lab rendering the result useless.

I agree that it does not seem to square with what other data we are seeing. But since his estimates, seem to be in the same ballpark as the CDC, it’s starting to lend greater credence to a smaller IFR than we thought.

It is early, and we shouldn’t come to any conclusions, but I feel that these are two important pieces of data.
 
PS please get a spelling checker and while you're at it a grammar checker. It's tough enough reading your posts which are full of nonsense but are also agrammatic and full of spelling errors. It's a triple whammy to those of us who are used to reading cogent scientific material.

Wow, what a prick. I can't believe anyone would be holding this guy to any level of expertise. Shrinks man, they got problems. This is just mean.
 
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Yes, on Wednesday @N5329K suggested quercetin as a possible substitute for hydroxychloroquine to allow zinc to have access to the cells. Since zinc and quercetin are both safe when the zinc is kept below toxic levels, it'd be worth a try to see how much benefit is gained by the quercetin + zinc combo. I'm not in love with HCQ, and if a safer ingredient that serves a similar purpose is found, dumping HCQ for that alternative would be reasonable.

If someone is using HCQ prophylactically, the addition of zinc makes tremendous sense. Any study of prophylactic use of HCQ should include an arm that takes zinc. It's possible those taking HCQ alone (Potus?) are risking the downsides of HCQ without achieving the protection that MIGHT be provided if zinc was added to the effort.

As for vitamin D, might as well. Here in Hawaii I make a point to generate lots of natural Vitamin D, I supplement with quercetin and have taken Cold-eze zinc lozenges at first indication of a sore throat for many years. From my anecdotal experience, this combination has worked well to lessen the punch of viruses. The quercetin was a recent addition to my regiment.

I've taken a regimen of polyphenols + concentrated fish oil for years. Yes I know fish oil has failed in a bunch of studies - I'm actually an editor on some of those studies for Frontiers. I can tell you that in the better done studies where there are controls for omega-6 intake (in other words not consuming bags of vegetable oils high in omega-6 which is the 'opponent process' fat that promotes prostagladins) high-dose omega-3 supplementation with roughly twice as much EPA as DHA fish oil shows significant anti-inflammatory benefit. Was the only thing that allowed me to get past having to do serial epidural steroids in relationship to a serious back injury. My polyphenol combination includes quercetin, EGCG, curcuminoids and pterostilbene. Looks better and better.