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I think ecological collapse combined with over population is going to get us before either of those two. The oceans are in bad shape from our abuses. And we're not doing too well on land either. The elephant in the room is that the Earth has more people than it can sustain long term. The only answers I can think of to reduce the population are things of nightmares.
Japan has done a pretty good job of reducing the population. Japan is not perfect as they still pave over just about everything they can and perform many other ecological abuses, but the population is declining without any draconian methods. Our best hope is that we become multi-planetary and move some of the population off.
 
I think ecological collapse combined with over population is going to get us before either of those two. The oceans are in bad shape from our abuses. And we're not doing too well on land either. The elephant in the room is that the Earth has more people than it can sustain long term. The only answers I can think of to reduce the population are things of nightmares.

In a discussion about population on another chat board I said that if I could magically sterilize people without doing them any other harm, I would do so, to reduce population. Pretty much everybody in the discussion jumped on me and said I was a horrible person for wanting to deprive people of their right to reproduce without limit. The unanimous opinion was that people have the right to have as many babies as they want. And that merely for wanting to deprive people of that, I was a bad person.

We're told that the world population will stabilize at around 10 or 11 billion. The problem is that as the developing countries develop they will demand more and more resources. A world of ten billion people all living at the standard of living of the average American would require as much energy and natural resources as something like 20 billion people of today's average consumption level. And that is not sustainable. It's not just population growth, it's the rise in the standard of living. For humanity to survive, the industrialized nations will have to accept a much lower standard of living so that the rest of the world can have a decent standard of living. And this is something the wealthy nations will not accept.

Japan has done a pretty good job of reducing the population. Japan is not perfect as they still pave over just about everything they can and perform many other ecological abuses, but the population is declining without any draconian methods. Our best hope is that we become multi-planetary and move some of the population off.

Colonizing other planets is not science fiction. It is fantasy. "Terraforming" planets is so much a part of space fantasy shows that people have begun to think of it as possible. It is not. Mars, for example, has virtually no atmosphere because of its lower gravity and its lack of a magnetosphere. The solar wind blows away the atmosphere as quickly as it can bubble up from the regolith. Further, it's simply idiotic to think that we could terraform another planet when we cannot even terra-maintain Earth.

We've got one planet. It was ideal for us. And we're ruining it as fast as we can.

Once upon a time the Earth had no free oxygen. Cyanobacteria thrived, and the oxygen that was their own waste product drove them nearly to extinction and now they can live only where there's no oxygen. What cyanobacteria did in a billion (?) years, we are doing in a century or two: Poisoning ourselves with our own waste. The Earth will survive. We won't.

Unless, of course, the next pandemic is a lot more deadly and kills off nine-tenths of the Earth's people. Which is possible, given how many people refuse vaccines.
 
Japan has done a pretty good job of reducing the population. Japan is not perfect as they still pave over just about everything they can and perform many other ecological abuses, but the population is declining without any draconian methods. Our best hope is that we become multi-planetary and move some of the population off.
this is doubtful and has been discussed on and off for decades in the science fiction literature, and dismissed.
the more likely scenario is a hardy few will “bud off” but the vast majority will remain behind.

yes to multiplanetary, and space faring not at the bottom of gravity wells, but only a self selected few (and transportees) will venture forth
 
Another good step for mid- and low-income countries
Covaxin: WHO approves India Covid vaccine for emergency use

From the manufacturer's website:
COVAXIN - India's First Indigenous Covid-19 Vaccine | Bharat Biotech

"It is a 2-dose vaccination regimen given 28 days apart.
It is a vaccine with no sub-zero storage, no reconstitution requirement, and ready to use liquid presentation in multi-dose vials, stable at 2-8C.
...
COVAXIN® demonstrated 77.8% vaccine efficacy against symptomatic COVID-19 disease, through evaluation of 130 confirmed cases, with 24 observed in the vaccine group versus 106 in the placebo group. The efficacy against severe symptomatic COVID-19 disease is shown to be 93.4%. The efficacy data demonstrates 63.6% protection against asymptomatic COVID-19.
...
It has proven to neutralize the variants - B.1.1.7 (Alpha) first isolated in UK, P.1- B.1.1.28 (Gamma) & P.2 - B.1.1.28 (Zeta) first isolated in Brazil, B.1.617 (Kappa) first isolated in India, B.1.351 & B.1.617.2 (Beta & Delta) first isolated in RSA & India.

Efficacy data demonstrates 65.2% protection against the SARS-CoV-2, B.1.617.2 Delta variant."
 
Postacute COVID-19 Syndrome May Affect Physical, Cognitive Function

The researchers found that fatigue, brain fog, and headache were the most common persistent symptoms (82, 67, and 60 percent, respectively). Physical exertion, stress, and dehydration were the most common triggers of symptom exacerbation (86, 69, and 49 percent, respectively). Levels of fatigue and dyspnea were increased, and there was a decrease in regularly completed physical activity. Sixty-three percent of patients scored for at least mild cognitive impairment; Self-care, Anxiety/Depression, and Usual Activities was the domain of the EQ-5D-5L that was most impacted.​
 
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"Terraforming" planets is so much a part of space fantasy shows that people have begun to think of it as possible. It is not. Mars, for example, has virtually no atmosphere because of its lower gravity and its lack of a magnetosphere. The solar wind blows away the atmosphere as quickly as it can bubble up from the regolith. Further, it's simply idiotic to think that we could terraform another planet when we cannot even terra-maintain Earth.
The reason we don't maintain Earth is greed, not because we can't.
The reason to terraform other planets is because it's cool. And we're greedy. Oh and it could be helpful to save mankind.

Mars is difficult because of the atmosphere. Venus is difficult because of current conditions.
You know that Tesla's developments with toughened glass is because Musk wants to build giant domes on Mars.
 
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In a discussion about population on another chat board I said that if I could magically sterilize people without doing them any other harm, I would do so, to reduce population. Pretty much everybody in the discussion jumped on me and said I was a horrible person for wanting to deprive people of their right to reproduce without limit. The unanimous opinion was that people have the right to have as many babies as they want. And that merely for wanting to deprive people of that, I was a bad person.

We're told that the world population will stabilize at around 10 or 11 billion. The problem is that as the developing countries develop they will demand more and more resources. A world of ten billion people all living at the standard of living of the average American would require as much energy and natural resources as something like 20 billion people of today's average consumption level. And that is not sustainable. It's not just population growth, it's the rise in the standard of living. For humanity to survive, the industrialized nations will have to accept a much lower standard of living so that the rest of the world can have a decent standard of living. And this is something the wealthy nations will not accept.



Colonizing other planets is not science fiction. It is fantasy. "Terraforming" planets is so much a part of space fantasy shows that people have begun to think of it as possible. It is not. Mars, for example, has virtually no atmosphere because of its lower gravity and its lack of a magnetosphere. The solar wind blows away the atmosphere as quickly as it can bubble up from the regolith. Further, it's simply idiotic to think that we could terraform another planet when we cannot even terra-maintain Earth.

We've got one planet. It was ideal for us. And we're ruining it as fast as we can.

Once upon a time the Earth had no free oxygen. Cyanobacteria thrived, and the oxygen that was their own waste product drove them nearly to extinction and now they can live only where there's no oxygen. What cyanobacteria did in a billion (?) years, we are doing in a century or two: Poisoning ourselves with our own waste. The Earth will survive. We won't.

Unless, of course, the next pandemic is a lot more deadly and kills off nine-tenths of the Earth's people. Which is possible, given how many people refuse vaccines.
Very shortsighted take on population growth and glad you don't have the power to sterilize people... Population growth rate is decreasing.


And the entire point of Tesla is to transition the world to sustainable energy as quickly as humanly possible. It's a hugely ambitious goal, but is worth pursuing vs the idea of sterilizing people, which is something straight out of a dystopian playbook. Might want to read up on Eugenics...
 
The reason we don't maintain Earth is greed, not because we can't.
The reason to terraform other planets is because it's cool. And we're greedy. Oh and it could be helpful to save mankind.

Mars is difficult because of the atmosphere. Venus is difficult because of current conditions.
You know that Tesla's developments with toughened glass is because Musk wants to build giant domes on Mars.

Both greed and overpopulation are causes of the destabilization of the environment on Earth. And if we could terraform Mars (which we cannot!) how long would it be before greed and overpopulation ruined Mars also?

The most optimistic fantasies about terraforming Mars would take thousands of years to realize. We don't have that long. We certainly could establish a colony there which, if the colonists even survived the trip and the landing, would require constant re-supply from Earth. And how long would it be before a global recession or just plain boredom and greed put an end to that re-supply program?

Some sci-fi aficionados think that "everything is possible," that if you can imagine it science can do it. But they don't realize how hostile Mars is or how impossible it would be just to get an atmosphere to stay in place. Not to mention the toxic regolith in which nothing can grow. A colony would be underground, as cosmic rays make the surface deadly. Imagine living the rest of your life in a dungeon. On purpose. If we ever sent colonists to Mars, the ones who crash and die on landing would be the lucky ones.
 
Both greed and overpopulation are causes of the destabilization of the environment on Earth. And if we could terraform Mars (which we cannot!) how long would it be before greed and overpopulation ruined Mars also?

The most optimistic fantasies about terraforming Mars would take thousands of years to realize. We don't have that long. We certainly could establish a colony there which, if the colonists even survived the trip and the landing, would require constant re-supply from Earth. And how long would it be before a global recession or just plain boredom and greed put an end to that re-supply program?

Some sci-fi aficionados think that "everything is possible," that if you can imagine it science can do it. But they don't realize how hostile Mars is or how impossible it would be just to get an atmosphere to stay in place. Not to mention the toxic regolith in which nothing can grow. A colony would be underground, as cosmic rays make the surface deadly. Imagine living the rest of your life in a dungeon. On purpose. If we ever sent colonists to Mars, the ones who crash and die on landing would be the lucky ones.
if you stop and think a moment, exactly what are we doing to Terra right now, if not inadvertently terraforming it?
have we not warmed the entire planet over the last 8,000 years?
(yes is the answer by the way.)
 
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I hope whilst everyone is debating terraforming and population control, you can all make time to get your booster vaccinations, regardless of whether you technically qualify. Remember, everyone qualifies, whether they actually qualify or not, assuming you meet the age limit of 18 and it has been 6 months since your primary series (for mRNA vaccinations - for J&J the interval is much shorter). There are no other restrictions, in reality, unless you live in a weird place that is requiring documentation (very few places are). Be sure to say you're getting your third dose - don't screw up the statistics.

Also tell your friends. I do not recommend the J&J. I'd get Moderna (I got a Pfizer booster). This is not medical advice.

Let's make this a happy Thanksgiving & Christmas & holiday season. Boosters help a LOT even if they do not help indefinitely.
 
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I hope whilst everyone is debating terraforming and population control, you can all make time to get your booster vaccinations, regardless of whether you technically qualify.
Got mine (Moderna) two days ago, but it wasn't easy. Most of the appointment websites haven't been updated, so they always refuse to go past the second page or just flat out refuse. Most places won't make an appointment in the pharmacy. (I only tried half a dozen places). When you arrive they want documentation (in the midst of a remodel, so my vaccine card is somewhere). I finally found one place that would do walk-in vaccinations and would use the vaccination appointment tickets for the first two vaccinations. I even got a replacement vaccine card. Kudos to Tom Thumb grocery (even if they don't have any edible food).
 
Got mine (Moderna) two days ago, but it wasn't easy. Most of the appointment websites haven't been updated, so they always refuse to go past the second page or just flat out refuse. Most places won't make an appointment in the pharmacy. (I only tried half a dozen places). When you arrive they want documentation (in the midst of a remodel, so my vaccine card is somewhere). I finally found one place that would do walk-in vaccinations and would use the vaccination appointment tickets for the first two vaccinations. I even got a replacement vaccine card. Kudos to Tom Thumb grocery (even if they don't have any edible food).

Such a weird contrast. Obviously ideal to bring your vaccination card in California, but it's all tracked separately by the state so you can get your vaccination record Smartcard QR code in your phone.
 
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Japan has done a pretty good job of reducing the population. Japan is not perfect as they still pave over just about everything they can and perform many other ecological abuses, but the population is declining without any draconian methods. Our best hope is that we become multi-planetary and move some of the population off.

Japan's economy has been in the doldrums since the early 90s because the younger generation is much smaller than the aging population. They are pouring all their GDP into supporting a large retiree population.

In a discussion about population on another chat board I said that if I could magically sterilize people without doing them any other harm, I would do so, to reduce population. Pretty much everybody in the discussion jumped on me and said I was a horrible person for wanting to deprive people of their right to reproduce without limit. The unanimous opinion was that people have the right to have as many babies as they want. And that merely for wanting to deprive people of that, I was a bad person.

We're told that the world population will stabilize at around 10 or 11 billion. The problem is that as the developing countries develop they will demand more and more resources. A world of ten billion people all living at the standard of living of the average American would require as much energy and natural resources as something like 20 billion people of today's average consumption level. And that is not sustainable. It's not just population growth, it's the rise in the standard of living. For humanity to survive, the industrialized nations will have to accept a much lower standard of living so that the rest of the world can have a decent standard of living. And this is something the wealthy nations will not accept.

Hans Rosling made a very good case for that. He pointed out that when a country's child mortality went down, the birthrate dropped to about 2 children per women. It didn't matter about the economic conditions, it all hinged on life expectancy. When child mortality is down, parents can trust there is a good chance their kids will reach adulthood, so 2 is enough.

The problem is that many countries reached that point when the population was already dangerously high and it will continue to go up for a while as the cohorts fill in. He had a TED talk where he demonstrated with some boxes. If I remember right, the world at about 7 billion people, it's divided into about 2 billion young children, about 2 billion between puberty and 25, about 1 billion 25-40, 1 billion 40-55, and about 1 billion over 55. I may have the divisions off, but that's the general idea.

As people age, the cohorts will fill in with 2 billion. In another 15 years there will still be 2 billion under 12, but the 25-40 group will have 2 billion people. It stabilizes around 10 billion people.

However, the rate of environmental destruction we're doing today with 7 billion people it's obvious that the world can't sustain even 7 billion long term. The world's wild areas are disappearing, the oceans are badly over fished, the pollution in the oceans is getting worse. People in developed countries feel guilt about all the plastic in the environment, but a study of where the plastic in the oceans comes from found 90% of it comes from a handful of rivers, all in Asia and Africa.

Developed countries have ways to deal with waste without severe environmental damage, but that isn't the case in the developing world and I don't see where anybody is even trying to solve the problem.

Food insecurity is also a major problem for the developing world. There are only a few major food exporters: Russia, Australia, the US, and I believe Canada. The Arab Spring started because we had a few bad years of grain growing in the major exporting countries. Russia had some major fires that wiped out the wheat crop, Australia had a bad drought, and the US had two springs in a row with severe flooding in the Midwest at crop planting time. All that resulted in a worldwide shortage of grain. The developed world didn't notice because even the poor in developed countries aren't really going to notice is flour goes up $0.10 a pound. But in the developing world grain imports declined dramatically and costs for grain shot up. People who were already near starvation couldn't afford food.

We're barely able to feed everyone now and we're burning out are farmland to do it. More disruptions in the food chain, for whatever reason could lead to mass starvation in the developing world. I expected a grain shortage this year. China had major crop failures last year and there were stories their grain stores were poor. I guess they managed to hold on without having to buy up the world's grain supply.
Colonizing other planets is not science fiction. It is fantasy. "Terraforming" planets is so much a part of space fantasy shows that people have begun to think of it as possible. It is not. Mars, for example, has virtually no atmosphere because of its lower gravity and its lack of a magnetosphere. The solar wind blows away the atmosphere as quickly as it can bubble up from the regolith. Further, it's simply idiotic to think that we could terraform another planet when we cannot even terra-maintain Earth.

We've got one planet. It was ideal for us. And we're ruining it as fast as we can.

Once upon a time the Earth had no free oxygen. Cyanobacteria thrived, and the oxygen that was their own waste product drove them nearly to extinction and now they can live only where there's no oxygen. What cyanobacteria did in a billion (?) years, we are doing in a century or two: Poisoning ourselves with our own waste. The Earth will survive. We won't.

Unless, of course, the next pandemic is a lot more deadly and kills off nine-tenths of the Earth's people. Which is possible, given how many people refuse vaccines.

Terraforming other planets is beyond our abilities now, but it might be possible someday. However it is not going to be a viable option any time soon.

It is possible that we're going to poison ourselves to a point where human civilization collapses and humans may survive, but in much smaller numbers and back to hunter-gatherer societies. The damage we're doing is not quite as severe as you say though. As little as 2 million years ago the Earth was significantly hotter with more CO2 than we have now.

It appears Earth got hit by a supernova about 2 million years ago and it triggered an ice age. There is also speculation that our solar system was part of a cluster of stars that was blown apart by the supernova. The movement of the nearby stars with respect to one another suggests that could be the case.

The ice age works with about 90,000 years of glaciation with about 10,000 years of interglacial. All of human history has taken place in an interglacial period. During this ice age an explosion of trees around the world sucked CO2 levels to the lowest they have ever been in the history of the Earth. We have raised the CO2 levels quite a bit, and we don't know what sort of long term impact that may have.

We are due for the interglacial period to end soon (sometime in the next 2000 years, the timing of these things is not precise). We may be seeing the pattern for the end of an interglacial happening now and the extra CO2 may end up supercharging the next glacial period. It's hard to know for sure.

If the world actually does warm, that's a better scenario than if it cools. A warming world would be bad for coastal cities, but as the world warms vast tracts of land that can't be farmed in Canada and Siberia would open up. The transition would be chaos, but in the long term we would have more land to farm.

If the world cools, that's a worse scenario. In the tropics more land would open up as the oceans recede, but that would leave coastal ports high and dry, and large amounts of farmland in use today would be lost. As well as many of the world's northern cities would have to be abandoned. We're talking New York, London, all of Scandinavia, Seattle, all of Canada, etc. Overall we would have less land to farm, which would cause a lot of the world to starve.

Postacute COVID-19 Syndrome May Affect Physical, Cognitive Function

The researchers found that fatigue, brain fog, and headache were the most common persistent symptoms (82, 67, and 60 percent, respectively). Physical exertion, stress, and dehydration were the most common triggers of symptom exacerbation (86, 69, and 49 percent, respectively). Levels of fatigue and dyspnea were increased, and there was a decrease in regularly completed physical activity. Sixty-three percent of patients scored for at least mild cognitive impairment; Self-care, Anxiety/Depression, and Usual Activities was the domain of the EQ-5D-5L that was most impacted.​

My partner has been through this. Fatigue and brain fog being her symptoms.

She's been doing neurofeedback for a few years and is now gotten trained to be a provider. Her therapist said he's been seeing the effect on the brain from COVID is the equivalent of a TBI. Many people who were making progress with neurofeedback saw all the gains erased when they got COVID. He's been treating some people with long COVID and having some success.
 
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Japan has done a pretty good job of reducing the population. Japan is not perfect as they still pave over just about everything they can and perform many other ecological abuses, but the population is declining without any draconian methods. Our best hope is that we become multi-planetary and move some of the population off.
Mars has very little capacity to sustain life. I think even 1M people scattered across Mars colonies would face severe sustainability issues. After Mars the next nearest (sorta) habitable planet may be tens of light years away. We're thousands of years away from being able to move even 1% of the human population off Earth.

I don't really think a 10B human population is sustainable indefinitely, but with some careful thought we can make it sustainable for a few hundred to a few thousand years. An indefinitely sustainable population may be in the range of 1B.

I don't want to see birthrates and population collapse in my lifetime. That's the wrong way to save the environment. Cut the population in half without real changes to improve sustainability, all you would do is delay global warming and resource depletion by a generation, maybe. At vast cost to our culture and civilization. Instead, we should work to make our civilization sustainable with the current population as we slowly, gradually lower the population to the 1B range over a period of a thousand or so years.
 
In a discussion about population on another chat board I said that if I could magically sterilize people without doing them any other harm, I would do so, to reduce population. Pretty much everybody in the discussion jumped on me and said I was a horrible person for wanting to deprive people of their right to reproduce without limit. The unanimous opinion was that people have the right to have as many babies as they want. And that merely for wanting to deprive people of that, I was a bad person.
We don't have to do anything like that. Nor should we. We have policy levers we can tweak to raise or lower birth rates. Lower birth rates by making it financially disadvantageous e.g. less generous leave, more costly daycare or housing. Or raise birth rates with the opposite, e.g. generous leave, subsidized daycare, child subsidies/tax credits, more housing.

Maintaining the economy with policy levers is much better than communism. In the same way, maintaining population with policy levers is much better than coercive means.
 
Mars has very little capacity to sustain life. I think even 1M people scattered across Mars colonies would face severe sustainability issues. After Mars the next nearest (sorta) habitable planet may be tens of light years away. We're thousands of years away from being able to move even 1% of the human population off Earth.

I don't really think a 10B human population is sustainable indefinitely, but with some careful thought we can make it sustainable for a few hundred to a few thousand years. An indefinitely sustainable population may be in the range of 1B.

I don't want to see birthrates and population collapse in my lifetime. That's the wrong way to save the environment. Cut the population in half without real changes to improve sustainability, all you would do is delay global warming and resource depletion by a generation, maybe. At vast cost to our culture and civilization. Instead, we should work to make our civilization sustainable with the current population as we slowly, gradually lower the population to the 1B range over a period of a thousand or so years.

If the population was halved a lot of things would start to change for the better. With fewer people to house and feed places that were deforested for human activity could be reforested. It would take a while for the trees to come back, but as they do they would start sucking up CO2.

The reduced population would probably be mostly using technologies that are cleaner than those that were in use back when the population was last 3.5 billion. We would probably keep the electric cars and renewable energy sources and quit using the dirtiest energy sources. The pressure to keep innovating cleaner solutions would be lessened, but progress would continue as long as there were still people capable of doing the work. A lot would depend on which 1/2 of the world's population were gone. If the bulk of the dead were among the poorly educated, technological development would likely continue.
 
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if you stop and think a moment, exactly what are we doing to Terra right now, if not inadvertently terraforming it?
have we not warmed the entire planet over the last 8,000 years?
(yes is the answer by the way.)

We're not terraforming Earth. We are deterraforming it.

I hope whilst everyone is debating terraforming and population control, you can all make time to get your booster vaccinations, regardless of whether you technically qualify. Remember, everyone qualifies, whether they actually qualify or not, assuming you meet the age limit of 18 and it has been 6 months since your primary series (for mRNA vaccinations - for J&J the interval is much shorter). There are no other restrictions, in reality, unless you live in a weird place that is requiring documentation (very few places are). Be sure to say you're getting your third dose - don't screw up the statistics.

Also tell your friends. I do not recommend the J&J. I'd get Moderna (I got a Pfizer booster). This is not medical advice.

Let's make this a happy Thanksgiving & Christmas & holiday season. Boosters help a LOT even if they do not help indefinitely.

Got my booster as soon as they opened for my category. (Old man, otherwise healthy.)

Some posts above referred to things we might be able to do in thousands of years, and multi-thousands-of-years climate trends. The problem is that we are increasing CO2 levels orders of magnitude faster than they've ever been raised before. Regions where crops can be grown will shift much faster than we can develop the infrastructure to adapt to the changes. This will result in disruptions that (as somebody mentioned above) will cause mass starvation, which will cause political and social upheaval. The human race will probably survive, but our industrial civilization might not. Humanity could end up back in the stone age with a world population of a few hundred thousand.

We have the technology to switch to sustainable policies. But the decisions are made by wealthy old men with a very short time horizon and powerful vested interest in maintaining the present system. And a solution would require the rich countries to share with the poor countries, something the rich countries are clearly unwilling to do, even though a goodly part of our wealth was stolen from them at gunpoint in the first place.

To bring it back to the thread topic: Coronavirus and booster shots. You are clearly better off if you get a booster shot. But you are even better off in the long run if people in poor countries get their first course of shots so that there will be a smaller pool of infected people in which to breed new variants. A sensible, sustainable policy would be to send massive amounts of vaccine to poor countries to get their populations vaccinated as soon as possible. But the rich countries are greedy and don't want to sacrifice anything. So even while huge numbers of anti-science people refuse the vaccine here, we hoard the vaccine and donate only an insignificant amount to poor countries. And this is just an example of how we do everything: We have used up the world's carbon budget making our countries rich, and we refuse to give more than token help to the poor countries so they could develop in a sustainable manner. They have no choice but to burn coal or starve.

We won't solve the problems facing the world because our leaders get rich by making the problems worse, and because our people will not share what they have.