Hmm, not liking that, either. This was the exact same time that COVID started ticking up last year - right at Halloween... Hope we're not in for a repeat of last year despite having pretty decent vaccination levels. Going to need booster shots for a lot more people ASAP...
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Coronavirus
- Thread starter Wenche
- Start date
This BS vax/anti-vax nonsense has gotten far beyond just the well-being of the people. Then again, it was never really about that to begin with. Majority of people aren't anti vax. They're anti mandate first and anti covid vax next. It is 100% political and money driven. And all these "vaccines work, vaccines are safe" statements are nothing but blah blah blah. There isn't enough history to determine the safety of this and if it's so safe, why is it that the powers that be can't be sued or held accountable if something goes wrong? It's still in clinical trials til 2023. I mentioned this in another forum/platform I'm on about the probability of a "booster" type of shot long before it was ever mentioned and here we are. Now They're already talking about a 4th shot in the works lol. The media driven narrative is meant to instill fear in people instead of the truth. The "real" numbers don't lie but displaying that would go against the agenda.
If the jab was as effective as they claim, a booster or versions 4, 5, 6, 1000....wouldn't and won't be necessary. If you genuinely believe that they are in pursuit of a cure or an end to this covid virus, I've got an island I'd love to sell you in montana. It's beautiful.
If the real goal was to end this pandemic asap, then they would follow other countries who have basically flatlined at almost 0 transmissions/deaths. China only has around 100k covid cases and almost 5k covid related deaths and their population is near 5x the U.S. but the U.S. death toll is over 700k and their case total is over 47 million. Big pharma is big business and the powers that run this country are mostly idiots, well.... they're actually smart. Just depends on your point of view.
It's unfortunate that these front line healthcare workers who were once considered heroes are now being forced out of employment and treated like trash being thrown in the dumpster. This mandate is only going to make things worse for this country as a whole and it's not going to improve anything. I really hope I'm not right about this like I was about the booster shot. Covid is here to stay. Get vaxxed or don't. It's your constitutional right to have a choice, especially with what you put in your body.
If the jab was as effective as they claim, a booster or versions 4, 5, 6, 1000....wouldn't and won't be necessary. If you genuinely believe that they are in pursuit of a cure or an end to this covid virus, I've got an island I'd love to sell you in montana. It's beautiful.
If the real goal was to end this pandemic asap, then they would follow other countries who have basically flatlined at almost 0 transmissions/deaths. China only has around 100k covid cases and almost 5k covid related deaths and their population is near 5x the U.S. but the U.S. death toll is over 700k and their case total is over 47 million. Big pharma is big business and the powers that run this country are mostly idiots, well.... they're actually smart. Just depends on your point of view.
It's unfortunate that these front line healthcare workers who were once considered heroes are now being forced out of employment and treated like trash being thrown in the dumpster. This mandate is only going to make things worse for this country as a whole and it's not going to improve anything. I really hope I'm not right about this like I was about the booster shot. Covid is here to stay. Get vaxxed or don't. It's your constitutional right to have a choice, especially with what you put in your body.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Here's some analysis by The Economist to read on a slow Sunday...
The pandemic’s true death toll
"Although the official number of deaths caused by covid-19 is now 5m,
our single best estimate is that the actual toll is 16.7m people.
We find that there is a 95% chance that the true value lies between 10.3m and 19.4m additional deaths."
The pandemic’s true death toll
"Although the official number of deaths caused by covid-19 is now 5m,
our single best estimate is that the actual toll is 16.7m people.
We find that there is a 95% chance that the true value lies between 10.3m and 19.4m additional deaths."
Doggydogworld
Active Member
So you support mandatory lockdown enforced by armed military in the streets? Mandatory smartphone app which restricts movement to your approved zone? Mandatory testing with imprisonment for positive results?
These measures are extremely effective. I'm just a bit surprised to hear an "anti-mandate" type support them.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Yup, we should weld doors shut to keep people inside I guess, very effective.
I was talking to our county coroner the other day and I reminded him how when my Mother died in March of 2020 in a NJ nursing home, there were no tests for anyone dying outside a hospital. He couldn't get anything from the state health department or the CDC either. He said that around then he had been reading about the virus in China and luckily told his staff to order extra PPE for the office, luckily just before it all was snapped up by everyone else. He told me that later in March-May 2020 he had to go to home deaths by himself, since all his staff was furloughed or on work from home as non-essential due to COVID. EMS and police refused to go into those homes so he had to remove the bodies by himself. And then earlier this year he had one family threaten him if he put COVID as the cause of death even though the person tested positive and died of pneumonia. It's been one crazy past year and a half, and still isn't over.
Actually, I'm not concerned about c19. I still go about life the same as i did before this nonsense. I believe i had it. Hell, think my whole family did if losin taste and smell temporarily was a clear indication. We didn't get tested for it. Wasn't a big deal. If I had it, cool. My immune system did what it was designed to do.
If the true end goal was to get rid of c19 as a collective, then a short term 100% lockdown should be something the entire population should be willing to do but I'm fully aware this isn't realistic. I'm not here to convince anyone about what's true or false, what to believe or not. My personal stance is mandating a jab is the only wrong approach in dealing with this virus. If someone doesn't want a jab, cool. Don't get it. If you're so worried about an unvaxxed person spreading it, then blame the vaccine for not doing what it's "supposed" to do. Any videos or comments made on social media platforms about other possible treatments or anything that goes against the jab gets deleted. Doctors can't speak up against it for fear of losing their license. Again, doesn't fit the agenda. Hospitals being out of beds due to covid patients? Lol ok.
These laws being implemented are some of the dumbest I've ever heard of. So a vaccinated person can dine indoors or go to bars or any indoor establishment knowing that they can be a carrier of c19 and also pass it to anyone else but an unvaxxed person can't enter those same establishments? Lol Is there some extra risk an unvaxxed person carries that a vaxxed person doesn't? Does the virus differ between a vaxxed and unvaxxed person? Florida goes from the highest number of cases couple or so weeks ago and now they're the lowest? What exactly happened? False reporting? The politics behind this so called pandemic just isn't adding up. I'm vaccinated for a lot of things but no way will I be takin this jab. Anyway, I'm done commenting on this thread.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Yes. The unvaccinated are much more likely to be carrying the disease, because the vaccines are quite effective at preventing infection (they prevent at least half of infections, and likely more than 3 out of 4 infections in lower transmission environments). There's no question about this now.
A bunch of people got COVID and died; Florida is now the #7 or #8 state in the nation in deaths per capita, and gaining; probably will be #5 in 3 months. The rest of those who contracted the disease now have some natural immunity which helps prevent spread. In addition, people changed their behavior, and the weather got cooler so people are spending less time in enclosed air-conditioned environments. Also, more people got vaccinated - 10% more of the population is fully vaccinated now (60% vs. 50%) vs. the end of July. These things all contribute, though exactly how they all play out is difficult to predict.
We'll see what happens this winter. I expect they'll see another surge, though I expect it won't exceed 1/3 the peak of this latest surge and won't be as bad as last winter. Florida has a lot of migration to the state in winter, and I expect a mixing of virus into other portions of the population not yet exposed will occur. However, there are probably not that many vulnerable people left so hopefully it won't be too bad and it really will be mostly over now.
I wish you luck and I hope that you did have COVID before and have some natural immunity. Consider a single dose of vaccine, and keep in mind that natural immunity, especially in asymptomatic or paucisymptomatic cases like yours, tends to provide much weaker long-term protection than vaccination.
I know several people in their 30s, 40s, and 50s, otherwise quite healthy - though probably overweight because most people are, who have been hospitalized for the virus and a couple of them were on ventilators for weeks. They are home, and still on oxygen, several months after clearing the virus. Their tracheotomies are healing up.
Fortunately for relatively young people, most recover from COVID with few ill effects. However, vaccination will greatly increase the chances of a relatively mild course of illness even if you do end up infected.
In the history of vaccination, there has never been a side effect that was not readily apparent in the first few weeks after vaccination. (Antibody Dependent Enhancement is kind of an exception to this, but we know it's not an issue for the COVID vaccine at this point and it was designed to avoid this issue.) For long-term risks, the mRNA vaccines are definitely extremely safe for everyone, and even for the young males who have higher rates of myocarditis (which typically resolves quickly without major interventions and no lasting effects), the risk balance is clearly in favor of vaccination. This was not always clearly the case, but we know this now. Please consider researching the risks of COVID and vaccination objectively, and consider the benefits of vaccination to you and your family. It sucks to be sick for two weeks, or worse.
The thing with vaccine induced myocarditis is that it is usually self limiting since there is no active infection to worsen and prolong it.
The thing I haven't seen yet is anyone saying that people with severe reactions to the vaccine would probably have same or even worse outcome to the actual virus since it's the person's own immune system that is adversely overreacting to the antigens.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Good choice otherwise you'd be facing a lot of inconvenient facts.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Covid has a higher risk of causing myocarditis than the vaccine. Association Between COVID-19 and Myocarditis...
Doggydogworld
Active Member
They started with 200k people hospitalized this year with COVID-like symptoms. They studied two of the four possible vax/infection combinations:
6.3k people - Fully MRNA vaxed 90-179 days before admission with no prior documented infection (VAXED)
1.0k people - Never vaxed, prior documented infection 90-179 days before admission (PRIOR)
EXCLUDED - Both previously infected and vaxed
EXCLUDED - Neither vaxed nor previously infected, or outside the 90-179 day window, or not tested both at/near admission and 14+ days earlier, etc.
A lot more VAXED than PRIORs ended up in hospitals (6.3k vs. 1.0k, presumably because VAXED skew older/etc. and not due to vaccine side effects)
A lot more VAXED than PRIORs tested positive around time of admission (324 vs. 89)
After adjustments they say PRIORs are 5x more at risk. I understand the need for adjustments, but I get suspicious when I see this many. Especially when the sponsor strongly favors one outcome over the other.
They mention the Israel study, which showed the opposite result. They say this may be due to them studying hospitalizations vs. generat population in Israel, or studying more recent (90-179 day) infection/vaccination vs. 6+ months in Israel. I don't know. The Israel study was easy to follow, this one not so much.
It is physically impossible to lock up 100% of the population of the world long enough to kill the virus. People need to do critical jobs like keep the utilities running, policing of those who refuse to comply, and medical care workers, among many others. In developed countries most of the population understand enough about how viruses work to get high levels of compliance, but that isn't the case in developing countries unless they have had a severe communicable disease outbreak in living memory such as the areas affected by SARS and Ebola.
The majority of people who get COVID do not have a bad case of it and get over it with no complications, but enough people do get seriously ill that hospitals in the US have had to go to triage care and let some people die when COVID is spreading fast. Also quite a few people who have had minor cases of COVID have long COVID with symptoms ranging from major (having to sleep 16 hours a day) to minor (hair loss, chronic mild asthma, various neurological conditions, etc.)
If COVID was as bad as Ebola, everyone would take it seriously, but everyone has either had COVID themselves or known multiple people who had minor bouts and got over it with little long term consequence. It's easy to slough off the warnings as no big deal.
As for China, their numbers of cases is almost certainly far higher than what they publicly report. The Chinese government is desperate to put a happy face on everything that they push hard to keep anything wrong under wraps. The whistle blower who made the world aware of COVID was punished for it. They also went to the draconian measures others have mentioned to try and keep it under control. Per capita China probably hasn't been as bad as the US in real numbers because of the draconian measures they took, but the actual cases and deaths are probably a few times more than they admit.
The various laws and regulations around COVID are changing all the time because we're still learning about this disease. The latest information (posted here a few days ago) is that while vaccinated people can be infectious with COVID, they are infectious for a shorter period of time than unvaccinated people. And they are less likely to get sick from it and if they do get sick, they are less likely to get seriously ill.
Boosters were discussed as a possibility from the start because we don't know how long immunity from the vaccine was going to last. Respiratory viruses in particular are difficult to control and immunity from them can be short lived. Humans have almost no long term immunity from cold viruses and the immunity to flu viruses varies from person to person. Some people get very little immunity or immunity that fades quickly while others get very good immunity to the flu. COVID is both the most lethal respiratory virus in large scale circulation and it appears the immunity to it is going to be like the flu. Some people are one and done while others are vulnerable again a relatively short time later. Some people get worse infections the second time around.
Most of the time the disease information we're getting as the general public is decades behind the researchers. What we are being told is well known information. With COVID we're sometimes getting information that is only weeks behind the research and we're getting a front row seat to how the sausage is getting made. When science is investigating something complex, there are always a lot of false starts, research that turns out to be wrong for one reason or another, and the occasional charlatan pushing bogus research. The public doesn't usually see most of this because there is no burning need to let the public know until the science is much better understood, but with COVID we're seeing research much closer to raw form because of the public health crisis.
Historically there have been some problems with vaccine and some have shown up years later.
Historical Safety Concerns | Vaccine Safety | CDC
But long term consequences from vaccines are very rare. The odds that we will see any long term side effects from the COVID vaccines is very, very low. We are more likely to see an issue with a bad batch of COVID vaccines and that risk goes up if the vaccine is licensed out to be made in other countries. Some developing countries have safety standards on par with developed countries, but some don't.
I find it ironic that anti-vaxxers have been claiming the vaccine can make people sterile (especially men), but evidence shows that while that is not a side effect of the vaccine, it is a possible side effect of getting COVID.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
I'm sorry, I quickly poked through the links and maybe I missed something that "showed up years later." But I did not see a single incident there that was not obvious in the first month or so after vaccination. The SV40 incident was ambiguous. The other issues all seemed immediately evident; no long-term concerns. So I don't see anything that contradicts my statement - again, perhaps I missed something in your link.
I'm not talking about issues with vaccination that results in damage that results in long-term health problems - obviously that happens, and has happened with some vaccines over the years! I'm talking about long-term issues with vaccines that are not basically immediately evident (I am still not aware of any such issues). The point being that we would know if there were issues with the COVID vaccine at this point, based on the history. It absolutely was an unknown in the first few months after the mRNA vaccine was released - we just didn't know (though we had reason to be confident, though not certain, that they were safe)! Now we do - they are perfectly safe, assuming the historical precedent holds. It's possible that the mRNA can cause GBS (does anyone know of any such cases?) - but even that would fall outside the bounds of my statement - that's a consequence that becomes evident quite quickly. The myocarditis also falls outside the bounds of my statement - even if it causes long-term health consequences in a few very unlucky individuals (I have not heard that reported yet).
It's certainly possible to screw this up - there are viruses that elevate the risk of cancer for example. So if a vaccine were contaminated with that virus, for example, it would be possible to have long-term consequences. But that has never been confirmed to have happened, to my knowledge (even with SV40), and that is why the FDA watches vaccine purity & manufacturing processes very carefully.
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Throughout this whole kerfuffle, the anti-vaxxers have falsely and dishonestly attributed health problems to the vaccine that are actually caused far more frequently by the virus itself, or are caused only by the virus. Their strategy is to create fear of the vaccine by claiming that it causes the very problems that it prevents.
There have been anti-vaxxers for as long as there have been vaccines. But the modern anti-vax movement was started by a quack (Dr. Wakefield) who made intentionally fraudulent claims, using data that he just made up out of whole cloth, with no actual evidence whatsoever, in order to promote his own "homeopathic vaccine."
I don't doubt that some anti-vaxxers today are just deluded conspiracy theorists, but there is a dangerous trend to delegitimize science itself. From creationism to climate-change denial to "alternative medicine" (which isn't medicine at all) interests threatened by science are doing their utmost to convince the public to reject science itself. This is a very dangerous trend that threatens the well-being of humanity itself.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Welcome to the culture war - where politicians can get elected by just talking about things and not actually doing anything to help the people.
ps : I just looked at # of cases / 1M population in US states. What is striking is that, out of top 24 states, 23 are red (exception being Rhode Island at #10). Shows the effect of culture war on Covid.
United States COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
United States Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.
www.worldometers.info
So, "culture war" means that politicians can get elected if they just say "science is wrong" enough times? When I was growing up, science was where progress came from. Science was how we learned how things work. Now enough people think science is useless that three-quarters of a million people are dead of a disease we could end right now if they'd just get vaccinated. And all because conservative politicians have decided that the way to get elected is to lie about a deadly virus. Betting pool: Which will wipe out our civilization first: a vaccine-preventable virus or global climate change?
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Yes - ofcourse both sides use coded words to convey which side of the war they are on. "Natural Immunity" vs "Mandates" for eg. Just a continuation of the old tradition vs progress - but now applied to almost everything in public sphere.
It didn't really matter whether Trump built the wall or not. He had to just mention it enough times.
I stand corrected.
The internet has weaponized the Dunning-Kruger Effect
Dunning–Kruger effect - Wikipedia
There are also some people who are automatically skeptical of any form of legitimate authority and instead only believe crackpots. My partner has a friend like this. She's very liberal and very paranoid of getting sick so she got vaccinated, but with most everything else she's very skeptical. She believes the moon landings were faked, won't eat gluten because some people say it's bad (she has zero health issues when she does eat gluten). I've come up with a way to set aside a large stockpile of apples in the fall washing them in food grade hydrogen peroxide and a little soap first then storing them away. I've been doing it for over 20 years. She wanted to do the same, but freaked out about the hydrogen peroxide.
The Dunning-Kruger idiots who think they are experts on subjects they know nothing about have found fertile ground on the internet. All sorts of counter science ideas have taken hold and grown like the flat earthers.
Personally if a fringe idea has some evidence to back it up, I'll look at it and keep and open mind. Many of the world's greatest ideas started as fringe ideas. But if the evidence is overwhelmingly against it, it's probably not just fringe, it's crackpot.
I think ecological collapse combined with over population is going to get us before either of those two. The oceans are in bad shape from our abuses. And we're not doing too well on land either. The elephant in the room is that the Earth has more people than it can sustain long term. The only answers I can think of to reduce the population are things of nightmares.
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