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cost of battery options

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by AnOutsider, Apr 26, 2009.

  1. AnOutsider

    AnOutsider S532 # XS27

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    I'd imagine once the technology is improved, or costs come down, Tesla should be able to make better (longer life, longer range, etc) battery packs that swap right in where the current ones lie correct?

    I mean theoretically, the car I bought with a 160 mile range battery pack, could, in 5 years, go 600 miles with a pack swap later on.

    If I were them, I'd make that known to folks who may be concerned about battery life and what happens in the end.
     
  2. Kevin Harney

    Kevin Harney Active Member

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    That is kind of my current plan. Buy a loaded Model S with a 160 mile pack. Rent the 300 mile pack for the summers until my 160 mile pack should be replaced then buy a 500 or 600 mile pack at that time.
     
  3. AnOutsider

    AnOutsider S532 # XS27

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    Sounds like a plan... I'd go with the 230 myself depending on the price and weight difference between that and the 300... My cars now only go about 250-300 miles on a tank as it is. Granted, they can easily fill up when their fuel is depleted, but that's hardly the point :biggrin:
     
  4. Kevin Harney

    Kevin Harney Active Member

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    Well my deal is that I have to quite regularly make a 170 mile trip over the summer months. 160 mile pack is more than enough for the rest of the year. I figure that the 300 mile pack * 70% efficiency at 70 mph and taking a way a 10% loss over a few years use would still give me enough to go the 170 miles that I need to travel before I can fill back up for the return trip. Thus getting the smaller 160 and renting the huge 300 when necessary. Keeps the car low enough in price so that I can get all of the options on it that I want.
     
  5. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Supreme Premier

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    Kevin, I'm afraid you're counting the chickens even before eggs are laid.
     
  6. AnOutsider

    AnOutsider S532 # XS27

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    Yeah, too much can change in that time... but Kevin's post brings up something I've always thought about... Doug this may need its own topic.. but here goes...

    In standard charging, you're only supposed to charge up to about 80-90% and never let it go below aroudn 10% right? Now the stated range on a battery (let's take the 300 mile one for example)... is that if we were to go from 100% to 0% or does that take into account we'll only be using something like 70-80% of the capacity?
     
  7. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Supreme Premier

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    If you look at the roadster the maximum range of 244 miles is attainable in "max range mode" when the battery gets charged to 100% and then the computer lets you discharge almost completely. Standard mode only charges up to 90% and lets you to discharge down to 10%. I don't think Model S will be any different. 160 mile range will be attainable in such "max range mode", standard mode would get 80% of that or around 130 miles.
     
  8. AnOutsider

    AnOutsider S532 # XS27

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    Figured as much, just wanted to clarify
     
  9. johnr

    johnr Member

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    I had been considering the 230 mile pack upgrade option and had asked Elon about it. He said he expects the batteries for the model S to run at retail about $8-10k per 70 miles of range. Of course he stressed this is by no means official pricing. Things could change in the next two years - hopefully the battery prices will go way down :biggrin:
     
  10. AnOutsider

    AnOutsider S532 # XS27

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    Based on those numbers, that would put the 300 mile pack at around $43,000. If they charge only the difference between the 160 and 300 then that's about a $20,000 upgrade
     
  11. Kevin Harney

    Kevin Harney Active Member

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    yeah and that makes the Model S price very scary for me .... probably over 80K loaded.
     
  12. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    And you are surprised?
     
  13. Kevin Harney

    Kevin Harney Active Member

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    not shocked but a little bit surprised yes. I expected something in the 70K range.
     
  14. Tdave

    Tdave Member

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    $80k is what I've always been expecting for the Signature Series for which we're being asked to pony up a $40k reservation fee. Always made sense to me. For the 2009 (2010) Roadsters they asked for a reservation fee of half the expected final cost.
     
  15. Kevin Harney

    Kevin Harney Active Member

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    Yes I expected the Signature series to be loaded AND have a slight premium so I did expect that to be north of 80K.
     
  16. Palpatine

    Palpatine Banned

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    #16 Palpatine, May 5, 2009
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    Someone might have more info, but this is what one person told me at Tesla.

    The "max range mode" actually only charges up to 90% of the actual full capacity.
    The "standard mode" charges up to 80% of the actual full capacity.

    But they never tell you this. It has been configured so that 100% (the maximum range you could ever put in via the user controls) is really only 90% of the true limit of the batteries.

    The same goes on the bottom of the charge in the batteries. The car will literally not move any more and will still have a charge in the batteries. They will not risk allowing the cells to become unbalanced no matter how stupid the driver is.

    If they really opened it up and gave you the full range of the batteries and let you go the true 100% to 0%, the Roadster would have almost 300 miles of range. But the batteries would not last under that kind of abuse.
     
  17. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    #17 TEG, May 5, 2009
    Last edited: May 6, 2009
    My RangerEV works the same way. When the charge gauge says empty the pack voltage is still ~290V (drained down from ~340V). It turns out the NiMHs "wake up" a little if you run them down a little further every once and a while, so there is a TSB (Technical Service Bulletin) from Ford to force the pack down even more maybe once a year or so. You drive it until all the warning lights come on and it won't move anymore, then you turn on the defroster and leave it on until the thing completely shuts down. Then you charge it back up again. I don't think Li-Ion ever needs this kind of cycling, but it is somewhat related to this conversation.

    Note, earlier firmware in previous years of the RangerEV allowed a more complete pack discharge, got slightly better range numbers, but wore the pack out too soon... So many manufacturers learn from prototype to production that they have to keep a "little bit extra" in reserve in the pack to keep longevity good. I read that the Prius pack similarly takes a very conservative approach to restricting what charge levels are normally permitted.
     
  18. WarpedOne

    WarpedOne Supreme Premier

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    #18 WarpedOne, May 6, 2009
    Last edited: May 6, 2009
    James, thank you for the info!

    So its more like:
    - standard mode: up to 80%, down to 20%
    - max range mode: up to 90%, down to 10%
     
  19. AnOutsider

    AnOutsider S532 # XS27

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    Ok.. and to clarify, the 300 miles in a Model S is likely under MAX RANGE conditions. Meaning it IS possible to get the full 300 miles or so (which also means the battery is capable of more, but they make it so you can't fully tap it for obvious reasons)
     
  20. SByer

    SByer '08 #383

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    And you'll probably need to drive "accordingly". Though I think the Model S won't discourage that as much as the Roadster does ;-).
     

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