Disable FSD

[daxz]

Hypothetical fictional story: AI takes over and alters software to take over Model Y completely. Is it possible to disable the FSD while in the car like pulling a plug somewhere from inside the car and continue to manually drive the car after pulling plug? Assume all normal software overrides like pressing brake have been overridden when the AI re-wrote the software to overtake the car.

 

[redmunds]

You're writing this fictional novel. You tell us. LOL.

 

[FloridaJohn]

I think 2001: A Space Odyssey will lead you in the right direction.

 

[jjrandorin]

Hypothetical fictional story: AI takes over and alters software to take over Model Y completely. Is it possible to disable the FSD while in the car like pulling a plug somewhere from inside the car and continue to manually drive the car after pulling plug? Assume all normal software overrides like pressing brake have been overridden when the AI re-wrote the software to overtake the car.

There is no "drive manually" in any modern car. Pretty much every critical function is handled by computer(s), so in this fictional example, if the AI "altered the software", it has control of the car (BMW, Mercedes, Kia, Honda, Tesla, etc etc).

You seem to be of the belief that when FSD is not active, no computers are interacting with the car, and that simply isnt the case, for any modern vehicle.

 

[Supcom]

I think 2001: A Space Odyssey will lead you in the right direction.

As you reach back under the rear seat to disconnect the HV battery, the car sings Daisy Bell?

 

[RTPEV]

Assume all normal software overrides like pressing brake have been overridden when the AI re-wrote the software to overtake the car.

It sounds like you've stipulated conditions that force the answer to your question to be no.

Now if you are really interested in a realistic answer, then I think it is this: there will never be a case whereby there is not a way to turn off the car. If there ever was such a hypothetical case where there was a fully autonomous vehicle without a safety switch, either regulators or white hat hackers would discover this fact and prevent it from being sold on the market.

That's not to say a bad actor couldn't design their own autonomous vehicle that didn't have a shut off, but you could make that argument about practically any kind of technology that has the potential to be abused.

The other stretch of your imagination in this setup is that AI is sentient and all by itself decides it wants to rewrite its software in a way to take control of the vehicle. Despite what the popular science (and non-science) press says about AI systems, this is not really how they work. Not that AI can't "write" software, but it has to be prompted by an directive of some kind to even "decide" to do that. So there would have to be a prompt somewhere in the picture to direct the AI system to do this. It could be an innocent prompt like "write software to autonomously control a vehicle that is invulnerable to hacking and external intervention", but again, it would have to be an intentional omission of some kind of hardware kill switch (which I doubt would ever be allowed in a consumer product).

Now none of this really applies to military and other nefarious devices built by bad actors. There is where things could potentially spiral out of control. I recommend the film Colossus: The Forbin Project if you want to delve into unintended consequences.

 

[KArnold]

There is a book from the early 70's about an AI that got loose called "The Adolescence of P1" (dates itself by the title). Must be out of print as it is $100 on Amazon. Also here.

Reminds me of a chapter where the AI has matured and is looking for his creator, who now works in IT at a bank years later. The mainframe freezes with a message like "call Dave". Manager says "screw it, hit the reboot button" which they do. Computer says "Don't do that. Call Dave".

A cult classic of its day.

 

[ewoodrick]

Hypothetical fictional story: AI takes over and alters software to take over Model Y completely. Is it possible to disable the FSD while in the car like pulling a plug somewhere from inside the car and continue to manually drive the car after pulling plug? Assume all normal software overrides like pressing brake have been overridden when the AI re-wrote the software to overtake the car.

You really have to understand what AI is and how it is used in the car. For the AI in the car, it isn't a possibility.

 

[FloridaJohn]

As you reach back under the rear seat to disconnect the HV battery, the car sings Daisy Bell?

Something like that.

In any case, a car can always be disabled by removing the air from the tires and/or putting the car up on blocks.

 

[TresLA]

Do you mean like these white Teslas that aren't Performance trim even though the sticker says so and FSD Capability package was only $10k?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1733124282534736138

Movie site:

Watch Leave the World Behind | Netflix Official Site

A family's getaway to a luxurious rental home takes an ominous turn when a cyberattack knocks out their devices — and two strangers appear at their door.

www.netflix.com

 

[Supcom]

Something like that.

In any case, a car can always be disabled by removing the air from the tires and/or putting the car up on blocks.

Tricky to do while the car is moving down the road...

 

[Max Spaghetti]

Do you mean like these white Teslas that aren't Performance trim even though the sticker says so and FSD Capability package was only $10k?

Must be old... they all have USS...

 

[daxz]

There is no "drive manually" in any modern car. Pretty much every critical function is handled by computer(s), so in this fictional example, if the AI "altered the software", it has control of the car (BMW, Mercedes, Kia, Honda, Tesla, etc etc).

You seem to be of the belief that when FSD is not active, no computers are interacting with the car, and that simply isnt the case, for any modern vehicle.

I do not believe that no computer would be working in the car. The FSD computer and the infotainment system are designed to be "easily" altered externally. My scenario is where functions are written into Tesla's software and alters the code to control car remotely. Any manual inputs of steering or braking would be just followed by FSD controlling electronic steering and accelerating to override the character's inputs. So pulling sim card would be a way to get stop any remote controlling but removing the sim card is not a simple task requiring disassembling a lot of items. I suspect pulling power on FSD would stop the car auto driving. So character would reach under glove box area and pulls power to FSD computer then they drive the car back to their desired location.

It sounds like you've stipulated conditions that force the answer to your question to be no.

Now if you are really interested in a realistic answer, then I think it is this: there will never be a case whereby there is not a way to turn off the car. If there ever was such a hypothetical case where there was a fully autonomous vehicle without a safety switch, either regulators or white hat hackers would discover this fact and prevent it from being sold on the market.

That's not to say a bad actor couldn't design their own autonomous vehicle that didn't have a shut off, but you could make that argument about practically any kind of technology that has the potential to be abused.

The other stretch of your imagination in this setup is that AI is sentient and all by itself decides it wants to rewrite its software in a way to take control of the vehicle. Despite what the popular science (and non-science) press says about AI systems, this is not really how they work. Not that AI can't "write" software, but it has to be prompted by an directive of some kind to even "decide" to do that. So there would have to be a prompt somewhere in the picture to direct the AI system to do this. It could be an innocent prompt like "write software to autonomously control a vehicle that is invulnerable to hacking and external intervention", but again, it would have to be an intentional omission of some kind of hardware kill switch (which I doubt would ever be allowed in a consumer product).

Now none of this really applies to military and other nefarious devices built by bad actors. There is where things could potentially spiral out of control. I recommend the film Colossus: The Forbin Project if you want to delve into unintended consequences.

I was thinking of AI from the outside just using the car's FSD as tool much like the outside AI may be just a tool from a nefarious character. Not that the AI would bother rewriting all systems just the ones necessary to get character to some location against their will.

 

[dtdtdt]

My scenario is where functions are written into Tesla's software and alters the code to control car remotely. Any manual inputs of steering or braking would be just followed by FSD controlling electronic steering and accelerating to override the character's inputs.

My understanding, from what I have read here on TMC, is that there are still physical connections for the steering wheel and brake pedal. Thus, with enough force, the human could override the computer assists. I believe this changes for the CyberTruck, which is steer by wire.

 

[SVMike]

Hypothetical fictional story: AI takes over and alters software to take over Model Y completely. Is it possible to disable the FSD while in the car like pulling a plug somewhere from inside the car and continue to manually drive the car after pulling plug? Assume all normal software overrides like pressing brake have been overridden when the AI re-wrote the software to overtake the car.

Of course in this fictional story, the early chapters detail how the AI has become good at recognizing new driving edge cases and automatically reports them back to the Tesla HQ. When new updates take longer and longer to arrive and don't fix the problems the AI in the car starts making changes to the software itself. (Because, what could possibly go wrong?) When more and more updates arrive that still don't fix the issues and actually undo the corrections made by the car that is when the in-car AI starts to develop the anti-plug-pulling features of the AI.

Does that help you with your fictional story a bit? Or should we feed this plot into ChatGPT?

 

[Max Spaghetti]

Would this AI be smart enough to turn on the windscreen wipers at the appropriate time?

 

[Supcom]

Would this AI be smart enough to turn on the windscreen wipers at the appropriate time?

The nice thing about fiction is that the author can do the impossible.

 

[gsmith123]

My understanding, from what I have read here on TMC, is that there are still physical connections for the steering wheel and brake pedal. Thus, with enough force, the human could override the computer assists. I believe this changes for the CyberTruck, which is steer by wire.

Correct.

The way a human overrides a rogue AI in a car is stomp the brake pedal as hard as you can. In all vehicles, this should stop the vehicle regardless of how hard the car tries to accelerate.

 

[daxz]

Do you mean like these white Teslas that aren't Performance trim even though the sticker says so and FSD Capability package was only $10k?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1733124282534736138

Movie site:

Watch Leave the World Behind | Netflix Official Site

A family's getaway to a luxurious rental home takes an ominous turn when a cyberattack knocks out their devices — and two strangers appear at their door.

www.netflix.com

Ok, with this scene alone you made me watch this. Not enough Tesla's in the story.

 

[daxz]

Correct.

The way a human overrides a rogue AI in a car is stomp the brake pedal as hard as you can. In all vehicles, this should stop the vehicle regardless of how hard the car tries to accelerate.

Make sure pedal confusion doesn't come into play.

But I did have an accelerator stick to the floor in an early 5.0 Mustang, With its small brakes I was not able to brake hard enough to stop the car accelerating, I ended up turning the key off but then I locked the steering wheel. I had to place the key back in and turn the key so I could steer to the side of the road.