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Disappointing Range in P3D. Is this normal?

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I would say "plenty of range for daily use," but definitely not for road trips. Is it manageable? Yes, it is (especially since we have a lot of Superchargers in California). And I'm willing to manage it since I enjoy other aspects of the car, and road trips are a low'ish percentage of my usage.

I did a road trip recently, went ~130-280miles (280 was downhill a LOT) between charges, and all seemed well. To me, the charging seemed plenty fast. Just fit it in with other brief breaks. Probably added 15-30 minutes (vs. an ICE) to a 10-hour drive.

The penalty of the P3D+ vs. other variants is actually a bit less on road trips, since the losses are dominated by aero, which is similar on the P3D+ to other vehicle types.

Trip Report - San Diego to North Rim Grand Canyon

So you can see I averaged below 300Wh/mi traveling 80mph a lot of the time. These were with non-stock wheels but the trip estimator showed very similar results to the 20” wheel type - so would expect similar with PS4S.

My guess is that if a lot of your high use is due to climate control, you’ll actually do better on a road trip than you expect. Because that use will go way down at higher average speed.
 
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your numbers seem a bit high, unless you 1) spend a lot of time traveling at 90mph 2) like you use your brakes, or 3) are not using the stock 20” tires. Or, possibly, you love to blast the AC and heat whenever possible.

1) No, 90 is a bit excessive. But 80mph on the freeway is certainly common. 2) I rarely use my friction brakes, 3) I have the stock 20" wheels and tires that came with the car. 4) Regarding AC/Heat, I leave the climate on about 70 degrees during the summer. I'm usually parking it in a garage (in the shade), so the A/C is rarely "blasting." In the winter, I turned it way down and just used the seat heaters occasionally.

Your tires are wearing evenly, not excessively? Just wondering about excess toe for you. But you would probably know it by now - because you would have had to replace tires.

I don't think so. I have an upcoming service appointment to check a software issue I've been having, and I'll probably have them rotate the tires and take a closer look at the tread on the inside.
 
What is your commute? I do a 60 mile round-trip daily from Westminster to Diamond Bar (22/57 freeway) with 80mph spurts regularly but still get around 275 Wh/mi. I also autopilot most of the time. I set my temp to 69 F most of the time.

Still running stock PS4S 20" tires but since they have as much as 20k miles on them rolling resistance is a little bit less than new ones but shouldn't be more than 5% difference at most I think.
 
I wanted to follow up on this. Nearly complete with the efficiency modifications on my wife's P3D+.

  • UP Front Lip
  • UP High Efficiency Spoiler
  • MPP Comfort Coilovers
  • Custom Rear Diffuser
  • Base Rear Calipers w/ Performance Rotors
  • 18" Stock Aero Wheels + Tires
The only thing left to do is reduce weight on the front brakes. I have a few ideas but haven't settled on one yet. Regardless, the car looks really good haha! I also have a set of 19" Wheels w/ Summer Tires when not concerned with efficiency.

EFFECTS.jpg
MVIMG_20200204_173312.jpg
MVIMG_20200204_173329.jpg
IMG_20200204_173210.jpg
 
Base Rear Calipers w/ Performance Rotors

How does this work, exactly? (I don't want to have to search through your posts, sorry...)

Do you have to space it out so that it sweeps the outer part of the rotor diameter...or what? But then the radius would not be right...just confused; maybe it is obvious, sorry...

And you're just running the super tight clearance in the front? I assume you are running spacers, or you have the aeros machined and have them sucked in 5mm?
 
How does this work, exactly? (I don't want to have to search through your posts, sorry...)

Do you have to space it out so that it sweeps the outer part of the rotor diameter...or what? But then the radius would not be right...just confused; maybe it is obvious, sorry...

And you're just running the super tight clearance in the front? I assume you are running spacers, or you have the aeros machined and have them sucked in 5mm?

To run the 18" aero's with performance front brakes all you need is 3mm or 5mm spacers. The front clearance is very tight, but it works.

The base calipers bolt right on as replacements to the performance calipers on the rear. Or, if you have base brakes you can swap out for performance rotors (saves you a couple pounds per rotor). The pad sweep area is slightly smaller, so there is about 4mm of surface area towards the rotor center that is "missed" but this can just be painted over (or ignored, but it will rust). It's a great, cheap mod that I don't think many people know about (I've posted it before).
 
To run the 18" aero's with performance front brakes all you need is 3mm or 5mm spacers. The front clearance is very tight, but it works.

The base calipers bolt right on as replacements to the performance calipers on the rear. Or, if you have base brakes you can swap out for performance rotors (saves you a couple pounds per rotor). The pad sweep area is slightly smaller, so there is about 4mm of surface area towards the rotor center that is "missed" but this can just be painted over (or ignored, but it will rust). It's a great, cheap mod that I don't think many people know about (I've posted it before).

It looks from your pictures like your rear calipers are red. Did you swap the P calipers for base ones, and paint them red? I just ordered some of the Fast EV01+ wheels for mine for trips because I have read countless times the rear calipers interfere, and I had no way of checking the clearance (to factory 18's). Just wondering what you did for the rears to clear.
 
It looks from your pictures like your rear calipers are red. Did you swap the P calipers for base ones, and paint them red? I just ordered some of the Fast EV01+ wheels for mine for trips because I have read countless times the rear calipers interfere, and I had no way of checking the clearance (to factory 18's). Just wondering what you did for the rears to clear.

Yes, I bought a set of used base rear calipers and painted them red before I installed them. The factory 18's don't come even close to fitting over the performance rear calipers.
 
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I wanted to follow up on this. Nearly complete with the efficiency modifications on my wife's P3D+.

  • UP Front Lip
  • UP High Efficiency Spoiler
  • MPP Comfort Coilovers
  • Custom Rear Diffuser
  • Base Rear Calipers w/ Performance Rotors
  • 18" Stock Aero Wheels + Tires
Ah yes the elusive UP spoiler. Still waiting on mine. Did you do a before and after efficiency reading with the spoiler?

From the picture it doesn't seem much longer than the OE spoiler. The pictures on their website show a much longer looking spoiler. Maybe it's the picture angle.
 
Ah yes the elusive UP spoiler. Still waiting on mine. Did you do a before and after efficiency reading with the spoiler?

From the picture it doesn't seem much longer than the OE spoiler. The pictures on their website show a much longer looking spoiler. Maybe it's the picture angle.

Hoping to get some data this weekend. It's considerably longer, the angle of the photo does make it look small though.
 
Any initial data on the efficiency you’ve gained on your wife’s cars with any/all of those mods?

There are so many factors it is hard to dictate exactly which mod has what gain, but see this post for some data: Disappointing Range in P3D. Is this normal?

And UP is still the only one with data: Independent Aerodynamic Study of Tesla Model 3 by Unplugged Performance

I would still say the single biggest improvement is going to come from the wheels and tires (primarily the tires). Make sure to set your tire pressures to something that will help range (45psi+). Next, would be lowering the car (can be accomplished with springs, does not need to be coilovers). Then a OEM style P3D+ spoiler (can be had for ~$250). Then if you really want to you can do the UP front lip. Finally, lightweight brakes (rotors and calipers), but that gets expensive quick.

A 100kWh pack would help too! :)

Realistically, with all the mods I have done, we're probably looking at a solid range increase (50 miles) over a stock P3D+, and a more subdued 25 miles or so over a stock P3D-. Keep in mind we're talking about highway speeds. Under 55mph aero really does nothing.
 
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If you had something like TeslaFi, it would really help us get an idea of the efficiency gains. I'd love to understand what your Wh/mi was before and after the mods. Preferably over a long drive.

The primary factors of course would be:
  • AVERAGE speed
  • Elevation change
  • HVAC use (off preferably)
and you should be able to address the main efficiency impacts outside of regen and traffic conditions. Average speed helps on the traffic side but doesn't take into account regen losses.

Realistically, with all the mods I have done, we're probably looking at a solid range increase (50 miles) over a stock P3D+, and a more subdued 25 miles or so over a stock P3D-. Keep in mind we're talking about highway speeds. Under 55mph aero really does nothing.

Aero still has a sizable contribution under 55 mph. Its around 17-20 mph that Aero reduces to about nothing. Above 20-45 MPH, aero drag starts increasing until its about equal to road friction forces. Above that aero becomes a greater component.

There was a team that ran an LR RWD 622 miles on a single charge this way via autopilot around a track.
 
There are so many factors it is hard to dictate exactly which mod has what gain, but see this post for some data: Disappointing Range in P3D. Is this normal?
....
Realistically, with all the mods I have done, we're probably looking at a solid range increase (50 miles) over a stock P3D+, and a more subdued 25 miles or so over a stock P3D-. Keep in mind we're talking about highway speeds. Under 55mph aero really does nothing.

Thanks MasterC17.

I’m looking to swap to 19” Gemini with some fairly conservative tires. I don’t think I’ll jump on the brake swap, but I may also look at the UP front lip splitter. I think it both looks good and seems helpful.
 
My M3P without PUP has 6200 miles in about 10 weeks. I have the 18 inch wheels with the Aero caps removed. I have a healthy mix of highway and stop and go (although stop and go tends to be on the highway in rush hour traffic). Highway driving is typically at 70-80mph. My lifetime Wh/mi is at 265. At least once a day my wife tells me she hates it when I accelerate so quickly...

Not sure what mileage I am getting relative to the advertised 310, as I charge to 70% every day. My commute is about 40 miles each way.
Similar speed, wheels, Wh/mi and I think we're married to the same girl...
 
Ok I was able to test the new setup, albeit in very cold conditions (average was 31f). I set the cruise control at a steady speed and calculated the efficiency over 30 miles. No one is on the road at 5AM!

70mph = 285Wh/Mi
75mph = 310Wh/Mi
80mph = 330Wh/Mi

The total leg I went from 300 Miles of Rated Range to 10, and drove 228.83 miles with an average speed of 70.40 mph. This was with the HVAC Heat ON, because it was too cold not to lol. Averaged 291Wh/Mi.

During the next leg of the trip, ambient temperature increased to an average of 40f, and with it overall efficiency with the same speed increased about 7%. Averaged 273Wh/Mi with an average speed of 71mph.

For the last leg of the trip, ambient temperature was 42.7f, but I sat in traffic for significant amounts of time which really skewed the overall numbers. However, before hitting traffic I was able to drive 111 miles in 1 hour and 26 minutes, averaging 77.45mph, with consumption dropping to 294Wh/Mi (compared to previously 310Wh/Mi @ 75mph).

So basically what I can take away is ambient temperature has a massive overall effect on these numbers, so to really do the work due diligence I need to do these tests in "normal" summer conditions around 80f. Otherwise, not comparing apples to apples. I do think it is impressive that even just a 13f increase in ambient temperature helped achieve almost 10% better efficiency. I did pre-condition the car and drove it for about 50 miles before starting those initial tests.
 
I did a road trip recently, went ~130-280miles (280 was downhill a LOT) between charges, and all seemed well. To me, the charging seemed plenty fast. Just fit it in with other brief breaks. Probably added 15-30 minutes (vs. an ICE) to a 10-hour drive.

The penalty of the P3D+ vs. other variants is actually a bit less on road trips, since the losses are dominated by aero, which is similar on the P3D+ to other vehicle types.

Trip Report - San Diego to North Rim Grand Canyon

So you can see I averaged below 300Wh/mi traveling 80mph a lot of the time. These were with non-stock wheels but the trip estimator showed very similar results to the 20” wheel type - so would expect similar with PS4S.

My guess is that if a lot of your high use is due to climate control, you’ll actually do better on a road trip than you expect. Because that use will go way down at higher average speed.

Hi Alan

I have high regard for your scientific and technical expertise. I've tried to wade through the massive 48-page encyclopedic collection of posts on battery degradation / range loss. It seems like there are a host of factors, obviously these are all interdigitating in some fashion. But I wanted to get your feedback on whether you think this collection of factors is reasonably comprehensive or whether there's something missing from my list.

The original source of the concern is that we have 2 performance Model 3s., one with 12000 miles one with 18,000 miles. Car with the Lesser mileage shows no range loss at all or perhaps maybe 1 mile 309 / 310, while the slightly older car with 6000 more miles is at 290.

My cursory review of the bewildering forest of posts on this subject suggests at least the following factors affecting estimated range/kwhrs in battery:

1) actual battery degradation which of course itself is complex/multifactorial
2) temperature at which state of charge and range are measured
3) variations from firmware to firmware in terms of Tesla's computational algorithms, with at least two APIs
4) balancing or lack thereof between state of charge of cells in packs
5) Tesla's wheel size 'adjustment' of estimated range (obviously a boost for the 18in Aero Wheels and debit for the 20 inch wheels w/PS4S. Etc.)
6) charging practices and general 'battery hygiene' for lack of a better term (Not charging frequently to 100%, not leaving car in highly charged or uncharged State, etc. Etc.).
Although a lot of range loss is blamed on poor charging practices, I think this may be blaming the victim.


battery_violin_1.png


With all that said what's striking is the amount of spread in the violin graph on this issue of range degradation, which I'm attaching here. It seems that as mileage increases the standard deviation of battery range lost also increases. This suggests that there is some poorly understood vulnerability factor in a subset of packs or perhaps the vulnerability factor is unequally distributed. Obviously charging practices have some impact on all this but in our case, it's clear the two cars treated identically and driven identically have wildly disparate range loss. If anything my car has been driven harder and it shows no degradation. What are your thoughts about all this?
 
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, which I'm attaching here. It seems that as mileage increases the standard deviation of battery range lost also increases. What are your thoughts about all this?

I think that's partly expected, but mostly due to the method that Stats uses for gathering this data. If the data were filtered to only show projections of range from SoCs above 85%, and at temperatures above 50 degrees, I think this would look a lot tighter. There are a lot of errors introduced by low SoC extrapolations (that's the source of the initial spread - there is no evidence I've heard that there are ANY vehicles that show over 310 rated miles (under the old system) when new (obviously they do now with 2020 vehicles), and there are no reports of brand new vehicles with 300-305 rated miles that I am aware of), and because at low temperatures, the way Stats gathers data, the 100% projected range tends to go off of a cliff (which is not real). (Related to the two different API SoCs I guess.)

That being said, my current theory is that all vehicles are somewhat pinned (by software) at 310 rated miles when new, and only show degradation when capacity drops below 76kWh (for 2018/2019 AWD vehicles). So that behavior alone would lead to increased spread as time goes by, as different vehicles degrade at different rates (or may even have somewhat different starting points).

The original source of the concern is that we have 2 performance model 3s., 1 with 12000 miles one with 18,000 miles. Car with the Lesser mileage shows no range loss at all or perhaps maybe 1 mile 309 / 310, Well these slightly older car with 6000 more miles is at 290.

Yes. My guess is that your car showing no capacity loss probably just started at a higher max SoC than the other one (even though they both showed 310 rated miles - I've outlined my (unverified) theory on that elsewhere). To some extent it could be related to cycle count, type of use, etc., of course. I would expect that second vehicle to show more capacity loss relatively soon. But it may always be better.

) Tesla's wheel size 'adjustment' of estimated range (obviously a boost for the 18in Aero Wheels and debit for the 20 inch wheels w/PS4S. Etc.)

For the rated range number, this only applies to 2020 vehicles. For the earlier vehicles, it only affects the Trip Planner projections.

But I wanted to get your feedback on whether you think this collection of factors is reasonably comprehensive or whether there's something missing from the list.

Your list seems pretty complete.
So, as covered above, related items I would add:
a) Initial capacity likely differs from vehicle to vehicle, but this is hidden (start point can be estimated from how long the vehicle takes to show capacity loss). So that results in differences from vehicle to vehicle.
b) People erroneously project their projected full SoC numbers from SoCs below 80% (too much error), which results in incorrect reports.

Right now I can't think of anything else to add.
 
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I think that's partly expected, but mostly due to the method that Stats uses for gathering this data. If the data were filtered to only show projections of range from SoCs above 85%, and at temperatures above 50 degrees, I think this would look a lot tighter. There are a lot of errors introduced by low SoC extrapolations (that's the source of the initial spread - there is no evidence I've heard that there are ANY vehicles that show over 310 rated miles (under the old system) when new (obviously they do now with 2020 vehicles), and there are no reports of brand new vehicles with 300-305 rated miles that I am aware of), and because at low temperatures, the way Stats gathers data, the 100% projected range tends to go off of a cliff (which is not real). (Related to the two different API SoCs I guess.)

That being said, my current theory is that all vehicles are somewhat pinned (by software) at 310 rated miles when new, and only show degradation when capacity drops below 76kWh (for 2018/2019 AWD vehicles). So that behavior alone would lead to increased spread as time goes by, as different vehicles degrade at different rates (or may even have somewhat different starting points).



Yes. My guess is that your car showing no capacity loss probably just started at a higher max SoC than the other one (even though they both showed 310 rated miles - I've outlined my (unverified) theory on that elsewhere). To some extent it could be related to cycle count, type of use, etc., of course. I would expect that second vehicle to show more capacity loss relatively soon. But it may always be better.



For the rated range number, this only applies to 2020 vehicles. For the earlier vehicles, it only affects the Trip Planner projections.



Your list seems pretty complete.
So, as covered above, related items I would add:
a) Initial capacity likely differs from vehicle to vehicle, but this is hidden (start point can be estimated from how long the vehicle takes to show capacity loss). So that results in differences from vehicle to vehicle.
b) People erroneously project their projected full SoC numbers from SoCs below 80% (too much error), which results in incorrect reports.

Right now I can't think of anything else to add.

That's quite helpful. And as always Lucid. I knew about your imprecision concerns based on extrapolation from low state of charge, but it makes ssnse that could be baked into some data sets. And of course, there's no contesting that. What's interesting is the speculation that variation in initial battery pack capacity is in fact a hidden variable. I never would have even thought of that but it makes sense. Is there any hard data to support that that variation is more than 1%?
 
Is there any hard data to support that that variation is more than 1%?

The only evidence I have is from the EPA documents showing the discharge event energy (I've posted that in the 2020 2019 2018 thread...) varies in the vehicles Tesla tests for the EPA. But even that can potentially be obfuscated by the vehicle shutting down 1-2kWh early during the test because it decides it has to shut down the battery (those tests run into the buffer and behavior can be unpredictable). As an example, the 2020 3P+ was run twice and had capacities that differed by 1.4kWh in the two separate tests (77.5kWh vs. 78.9kWh), likely due to buffer shutdown, not an actual capacity issue (I am assuming the same vehicle was used of course) - while the other (different) 3P vehicles tested had 79.5kWh and 78.4kWh.

As a more extreme specific example, the 2019 SR+ had 54.5kWh, and the 2020 SR+ had 52.6kWh. I think more typically the battery starts at 53kWh (including the buffer). I think this may be part of the reason they voluntarily derated the 2019 SR+ from 247 rated miles to 240 rated miles - it more closely reflected the "average" reality - 7rmi * 219Wh/rmi is nearly exactly 1.5kWh.

I should add that since the number of cells in the SR and LR packs are related by the ratio 46/31, this means that these two values for "typical" are probably tightly linked.

53kWh (SR+) "typ" equates to 53kWh*46/31 = 78.65kWh (LR)

54.5kWh would scale to 80.9kWh - so that was a REALLY good battery, and is probably very rare. But there are probably some lucky folks out there who started with 80+kWh and wouldn't show any degradation until after they had lost 4kWh - 5% capacity loss! My guess is these folks will always be "ahead of the curve" - it's probably not like an initial bump which all goes away.

The only way to check this theory is really for a bunch of brand new owners to hook up SMT or similar right away and check capacity.
 
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