Discussion: Tesla Vision system for Model 3/Y

[panpan1]

Perhaps just a long day at work so my brain is not registering. I was just reading that vehicles delivered in May will not use radar. We are almost through May already…But I see your point that owners started acknowledging abs agreeing before delivery so perhaps nobody has actually driven the Tesla vision only cars yet. Or…have they been? Lol okay I’ll just go back to lurking now

These are probably the 10k to 20k cars that were on containment hold, sitting on Tesla lots.

 

[panpan1]

Radar delete is magnitudes less of a rug pull than the first AP2 owners.

I remember taking delivery of my HW2 Tesla and only having 1987 cruise control tech at time of delivery. No adaptive, just dumb barreling forward at a set speed.

I was also one of the first 1000 to get Tesla’s version of auto steer. It was limited to 25 miles per hour. Yes.. 25mph and only on highways. I’d test it out at like 3AM to not be a hazard to other drivers.

It was 2.5-3 years after taking delivery before it achieved parity with the mobile eye AP1. It was so slow and bad we called it AP parody forever.

I am sure the chip shortage pulled the timeline forward and not ideal for consumers and Tesla.

However, no long term foul as this was in the works regardless.

The limitations while annoying are manageable and will be fixed in short order.
Tesla has already tested AP vision substantially but is wise to err on the side of abundant caution.
I’m sure by quarters end, radar will just be extra weight in my HW3 cars.
Phantom braking sucks, eliminating radar as a decision maker will fix this nagging issue permanently.

How do you know this will be "fixed in short order"? Please point to where Tesla has fixed other issues "in short order".

 

[rjpjnk]

Right now they let me hold my order until early July, I'm not sure if they will let me hold it any longer. If the new update comes up, and if safety certifications are restored, and if I see third party confirmation that Tesla Vision brings the features close to parity, then I'll unblock my order. But sadly I'm not hopeful.

Sounds like a good plan. I requested a hold yesterday but haven't heard back yet.

 

[Wheely]

But how will you know in order to reject it in time?

You have a good point. I think I will get it writing before I pick it up. If it does have radar then I'll have to let other people beta test firmware releases too I guess. I managed to keep my X from updating to the current UI for nearly a year so I guess I can do the same with a model 3 if necessary.

 

[panpan1]

Am I the only person looking forward to losing the downsides of the RADAR?

I'm 99% sure that when the car lurches down to half speed on the highway due to an upcoming overheard traffic sign on an overpass that it's due to RADAR data conflicting with the visual systems (which continue to see open road ahead.) It'll be nice when my RADAR is turned off an this stops happening.

The car is very likely receiving a constant stream of unreliable RADAR data (because most RADAR data is notoriously unreliable) and has to spend a lot of processing power determining that it's noise. Tesla very likely has tons of data showing how often the cars needs to override RADAR input (nearly all them time), vs how often RADAR provides valuable input unavailable from the video streams (nearly never.) As the vision gets better, this ratio moves towards "RADAR is pointless waste" and it makes sense to delete it.

It's better than just removing the dead weight of the unit and power draw... it lessens the processor's load, which adds up to more driveable miles of electricity not spend overriding RADAR glitches. Don't forget that FSD sucks down about 250 watts per mile. That's a much larger fraction of your power consumption than most people realize, so reducing the load spent to disregard RADAR noise can actually add up enough to be significant. (Of course, if that processing power consumed by more activity on the Vision, side, then there's no net gain, and RADAR is simply holding back Vision's ability to do its job.)

This may all be true. Who knows? But perhaps they should have finished writing the code and tested it properly before making such a change? This is supposed to be a "safety" system. Do you feel safer as it stands right now?

 

[Wheely]

Let's look at this logically. The assumption is that the thousands of 3/Y vehicles sitting "waiting for a part" were waiting for the radar unit. We don't know that for a fact but it seems logical at this point. I'm sure there were plenty of meetings talking about how to get those out to customers and save Q2 numbers. At some point, I bet Tesla took a gamble. The decision was that Tesla Vision was far enough along that they could get away with releasing cars without radar to customers. The backup plan? If they are unable to make Tesla Vision work as well as radar within a certain time period (let's say 90 days for grins), the cars still have the connector for radar: worst case they can call in non-radar owners for a retrofit: plug in the radar and download an update.

I'm sure the devs were asked "can you get Tesla Vision to work as well as radar within X days?" and the answer came back "Maybe". But it was good enough to try it and get those stagnant cars out. I don't agree with this mentality personally (releasing incomplete cars) but I guess they decided the tradeoff was worth it.

Mike

Wow! I wish I was as optimistic as you. I haven't seen tesla fix anything as quickly as 90 days.

 

[MikeyC]

Wow! I wish I was as optimistic as you. I haven't seen tesla fix anything as quickly as 90 days.

I think there's a lot of skin in the game with this one. They may have to fix it quickly!

Mike

 

[beowulf573]

Sounds like a good plan. I requested a hold yesterday but haven't heard back yet.

I replied via text to same number that my order confirmation came in from and they replied within an hour. And this was on Memorial Day. They did initially refer me to the website announcing that an update in two weeks will resolve everything but when I replied that I had already reviewed the material and still wanted a hold they agreed for a hold until early July. I must say I was pleased with how fast they responded.

I *really* hope they can resolve this, but I'm also a realist. I might delay my 14-50 outlet also, no sense paying for something I might never need and I can always get it installed later.

 

[beowulf573]

I'm assuming with the removal of radar other features such as Forward Collision Warning, Automatic Emergency Breaking, etc, will also be purely vision based. Therefore, this means to take advantage of these safety features at night then Auto High Beam would also be required to be enabled? Has anyone seen any confirmation of this?

I could possibly see myself accepting just not using AP at night if Auto High Beam is not corrected, but I would not want to lose those safety features too.

 

[WhiteWi]

I'm curious about the logic here. It's obvious that every driver assist system relying on the cameras (autopilot, automatic wipers, automatic high beams) is proving to be inadequate if not bad. The bigger deal is that very important and effective modern safety features (e.g. automatic emergency braking) now also rely 100% on those exact cameras and systems.

How exactly is this to instill any confidence? If I need to make an assumption, it would be that AEB is now no more consistent or reliable than automatic wipers and high beams. It's that cruise control will be unavailable for most of our driving. Yet, I could buy an $18,000 Toyota Corolla and know without a doubt that every one of its equivalent driver assist and safety features will work without question.

Why is the roof on fire? Because my wife went from being talked into buying a Tesla, waiting 8 weeks to get one while sharing my car (which we never would own for regular commutes), and then having the rug pulled out from under us. Now what, buy whatever scraps are left on dealer lots or wait another 8+ weeks for a different car?

My wipers work just fine as well as all other safety features in Tesla.

 

[Rattletrap]

This really bums me out as I've wanted the 3LR for years and had been waiting for them to incorporate a heat pump. They finally added that feature, I test drove it in early April and loved the autosteer (and my girlfriend came along and confirmed that the passenger seat was comfortable for her lower back issues). I placed my order immediately at the kiosk and ran the calculation through my insurance company making sure the rate would be affordable. I've already sold my old car, installed an outdoor 14-50 outlet, and ordered a bunch of accessories that would've been standard on any other $50k car. Now I find out all within a week that they've stripped out the radar (immediately costing them their safety ratings and hiking insurance rates), stripped the passenger adjustable lumbar support, removed the emergency lane departure feature, and nerfed the top speed of autosteer. Can anyone clarify if the newly delivered 3s also force you to activate the driver nannycam (and leave it uncovered) in order to use autosteer? The videos I've seen on Youtube this weekend look atrocious, so if these things are delivering without any usable cruise control features I'll just cancel my order and lease a combustion vehicle for another few years.

 

[activehavoc]

I think there's a lot of skin in the game with this one. They may have to fix it quickly!

Mike

If it was that easy, it would already be fixed.

 

[beowulf573]

From what I've seen so far the cabin camera attention detection may reduce how often you are pinged to apply torque to the wheel but is not yet required. However, that may change in the future.

Given the abuses of AP I've seen, this doesn't bother me though I can understand why others think differently.

 

[rjpjnk]

This really bums me out as I've wanted the 3LR for years and had been waiting for them to incorporate a heat pump.

How do you know it still had a heat pump?

 

[Rattletrap]

How do you know it still had a heat pump?

Great point. Who really knows what else, if anything, is missing in these cars given their approach this quarter? They can keep providing test drives on fully-featured early '21 models, taking non-refundable deposits then shipping w/ deleted features 3 months later without notifying anyone. The language in their order agreement covers them.

 

[beowulf573]

I would be very surprised if they switch away from the heat pump without anyone noticing. That's a substantial change to the manufacturing line with consequences up and down the process.

Not including the radar could be as simple as not including the Continental part. I would imagine the mounting bracket and wiring harness were not altered yet given the suddenness of the change. I assume over time those will be removed or altered also.

 

[panelgaps]

Let's look at this logically. The assumption is that the thousands of 3/Y vehicles sitting "waiting for a part" were waiting for the radar unit. We don't know that for a fact but it seems logical at this point. I'm sure there were plenty of meetings talking about how to get those out to customers and save Q2 numbers. At some point, I bet Tesla took a gamble. The decision was that Tesla Vision was far enough along that they could get away with releasing cars without radar to customers. The backup plan? If they are unable to make Tesla Vision work as well as radar within a certain time period (let's say 90 days for grins), the cars still have the connector for radar: worst case they can call in non-radar owners for a retrofit: plug in the radar and download an update.

I really don't know how anyone can say that Tesla will provide radars if this move doesn't work out. I've been following Tesla for many years, and this company is all about blustering forward with whatever they want to do, and damn the critics. Adding in radars would amount to admitting that Tesla Vision is not as far along as they've been saying, and I really can't imagine them doing that, even if it means we are stuck with unreliable features for months or more.

Obviously I support the company, and I did decide to go ahead with my order, because I still feel Tesla offers the best EV in the game right now. But I'm not blind to its flaws either.

 

[MikeyC]

If it was that easy, it would already be fixed.

Not necessarily. They have 30 days to release the held cars before the end of Q2 so it makes sense that in order to kick those out the door, they had to start deliveries close to June 1. For all we know, they may be 30 days from something acceptable but they simply didn't have time to put the finishing touches on it before they had to start delivering them.

Mike

 

[jjrandorin]

I really don't know how anyone can say that Tesla will provide radars if this move doesn't work out. I've been following Tesla for many years, and this company is all about blustering forward with whatever they want to do, and damn the critics. Adding in radars would amount to admitting that Tesla Vision is not as far along as they've been saying, and I really can't imagine them doing that, even if it means we are stuck with unreliable features for months or more.

Obviously I support the company, and I did decide to go ahead with my order, because I still feel Tesla offers the best EV in the game right now. But I'm not blind to its flaws either.

Just speaking for myself (and not TMC or moderators or anyone else), I would say that one would need to make their decision based on whats there or not there now. Expecting tesla to retrofit radars "later", unless they specifically said "we will retrofit them later" will just be a cause for a bunch of upset people.

The very fact that they are making people acknowledge "tesla vision" (radarless implementation), means they have something to fall back on, if it goes south. "They acknowledged delivery of the car in this state, until we get it working on par with radar cars later".

I like the cars, and, as someone with a tesla vehicle, tesla solar and tesla powerwalls, have put my money where my "I like the products" mouth is, but I also know what tesla is not... and that is accurate when predicting how long it will take them to implement something.


TL ; DR -- Buy the car now or delay delivery, and make that decision based on the car as it exists when it is delivered, vs what someone may or may not think about whether any retrofits "might" be done (unlikely) or timeline on when tesla achieves parity ("eventually", but no idea how long that is).

 

[MikeyC]

I never really got into the "politics" of Tesla so I'm asking this question sincerely (because I don't know the answer). I know Elon Musk has always been against lidar but how long has he been against radar? When did he take the stance that vision-only is a better way to go? I wasn't really paying attention to it but I haven't heard about him being "anti radar" until it was convenient for him to take that stance: when Tesla had 10,000+ cars waiting for radar units they couldn't get. So is his new-to-me anti-radar vision-only stance just a PR stunt based on convenience? Or has he been talking about getting rid of radar for a while?

Mike