2022.20.9 - Tesla Vision impressions

[Boza]

With 2022.20.9 Tesla will switch to the vision system. It is not stated explicitly but it seems that the update will disable the radar.
I have not installed it but reading through the forums I see some serious drawbacks:
- Poor performance in bad weather (fog, heavy snow, snow covered road)
- Mandatory use of automatic high beams (we know how well those work)
- Mandatory use of auto wipers. BTW, if auto wipers, which rely on camera instead of a sensor - like any other manufacturer - are any indicator then the Vision system would be another fiasco
- Increased minimum following distance. How is that a product of a “better” system?
- Decreased max autosteer limit. How is that a product of a “better” system?

I would love to hear from anyone with a “legacy” car who installed it. I am getting more and more convinced that OTA updates is a really bad idea.

 

[Tam]

...Decreased max autosteer limit. How is that a product of a “better” system?...

Is it down to 85 MPH from 90 MPH?

 

[EVRider-FL]

Is it down to 85 MPH from 90 MPH?

Yes, according to the release notes. Also, following distance cannot be set to 1.

I have this update waiting to be installed in my 2018 Model S, but I can't decide whether I should install it. Like the OP, I'm also interested in finding out how it works for other people. I'm going on a road trip soon and I don't want to screw up AP, which currently works pretty well for me (I have non-beta FSD), and which I use for all my highway driving.

I'm also confused about something: 2022.24.x came out before 2020.20.9 -- does that disable radar too? I didn't hear about that when 2022.24 came out.

 

[Silicon Desert]

With 2022.20.9 Tesla will switch to the vision system. It is not stated explicitly but it seems that the update will disable the radar.
I have not installed it but reading through the forums I see some serious drawbacks:
- Poor performance in bad weather (fog, heavy snow, snow covered road)
- Mandatory use of automatic high beams (we know how well those work)
- Mandatory use of auto wipers. BTW, if auto wipers, which rely on camera instead of a sensor - like any other manufacturer - are any indicator then the Vision system would be another fiasco
- Increased minimum following distance. How is that a product of a “better” system?
- Decreased max autosteer limit. How is that a product of a “better” system?

I would love to hear from anyone with a “legacy” car who installed it. I am getting more and more convinced that OTA updates is a really bad idea.

hmmmm, one of my cars is a legacy X. I don't have the version you refer to, but I have had the FSB beta since back last winter and it performed pretty well in the snow up here. Better than me. The latest update from last week is even better. We shall see how it performs over future updates. So far, I am not taking the pessimistic view based on what has been happening on my car, but sure, I get your point. I just haven't seen any of what you list with the vision system.

 

[EVRider-FL]

hmmmm, one of my cars is a legacy X. I don't have the version you refer to, but I have had the FSB beta since back last winter and it performed pretty well in the snow up here. Better than me. The latest update from last week is even better. We shall see how it performs over future updates. So far, I am not taking the pessimistic view based on what has been happening on my car, but sure, I get your point. I just haven't seen any of what you list with the vision system.

That's encouraging. I think when Tesla first stopped using radar on certain cars, there were complaints about AP performance, especially increased phantom braking, but I would assume things have improved since then, especially now that Tesla feels comfortable pushing this change out to more vehicles.

 

[Silicon Desert]

That's encouraging. I think when Tesla first stopped using radar on certain cars, there were complaints about AP performance, especially increased phantom braking, but I would assume things have improved since then, especially now that Tesla feels comfortable pushing this change out to more vehicles.

YES, great point you bring up. I was one of those folks giving feedback that the increase in phantom braking was worse. I used a nice political reply, but personally thinking "this sucks terribly". On a later version (I think sometime around April), it got really suddenly better for me. Now I don't get them at all. I have noticed what I would call a substantial (but not perfect yet) improvement in overall FSD in this last week. One of my 16 mile drives with combination of interstate and local roads allowed no takeovers. On another road with very unusual markings and being repaired, it could have done better. So as everyone knows, still needs improvement; no news there. Bottom line, for me, the latest couple of updates are FAR better than mid last year when I had radar.

 

[Silicon Desert]

Oh and sorry to say, I want to make it clear that I am not on 20.9 as Boza asked. I am on .69 fsd from last week.

 

[EVEnergy]

I have radar and joined FSD beta which changed me over to vision. I haven't noticed any significant difference. In heavy snow/snow covered roads, radar was useless anyway. Initially it will kick your high beams on (if you're not around others), but I just switch auto hi-beams off and it drives just fine. I keep my wipers on auto and if I need an additional swipe, etc, I just do that manually so I haven't noticed any difference. You're right - follow distance increases but not a huge problem for me; I don't get that close if I'm driving manually. Speed limits here are 80 mph and I used to go 85 (the max was 5 over the limit). Now the max is the speed limit but oh well. It's not that noticeable.

 

[Silicon Desert]

I keep my wipers on auto and if I need an additional swipe, etc, I just do that manually so I haven't noticed any difference.

Now that you mention it, you remind me of an issue I had in the previous FSD June 4 release. Every time, I did a manual swipe of the wipers, even if just one wipe, I would see a message saying that FSD is unavailable due to vision restriction. That went away in the latest release.

 

[Boza]

Now that you mention it, you remind me of an issue I had in the previous FSD June 4 release. Every time, I did a manual swipe of the wipers, even if just one wipe, I would see a message saying that FSD is unavailable due to vision restriction. That went away in the latest release.

Does that mean that for non-beta FSD you have to turn on auto wipers and auto high beams? Those two do not work for me and I keep them permanently on manual.

 

[Boza]

hmmmm, one of my cars is a legacy X. I don't have the version you refer to, but I have had the FSB beta since back last winter and it performed pretty well in the snow up here. Better than me. The latest update from last week is even better. We shall see how it performs over future updates. So far, I am not taking the pessimistic view based on what has been happening on my car, but sure, I get your point. I just haven't seen any of what you list with the vision system.

I would not use the FSD in a snow storm (it always wants to go with the speed limit) but I would use the road picture when the road is covered with snow and I cannot see the lanes. Can the car see the lanes with Tesla Vision only?

 

[Boza]

If this is how FSD with Tesla Vision behaves then it is way worse than radar. I don’t want it!

 

[KArnold]

I bought my '17 MS new but have been in FSDB and radar-less since June. Early on there were serious issues but it's a lot better. I've not had a phantom brake at all. Now. I do miss the 'follow 1' and '90 MPH cruise limit' on occasion.

Couple of years ago coming into Bozeman MT, dark, high winds, heavy rain, curvy road, 70 speed limit - one brave soul who I assume was local, pushed through with hazards at 45 MPH. I started to follow but did not feel comfortable even at this speed. Occurred to me to turn on TACC - it kept pace perfectly, better than I could. I do not think vision will do this anytime soon. But they are super rare too.

Otherwise control systems are very comparable.

 

[Silicon Desert]

Does that mean that for non-beta FSD you have to turn on auto wipers and auto high beams? Those two do not work for me and I keep them permanently on manual.

Good question. No

 

[ATPMSD]

Installed 2022.20.9 last night, my car has FSD and auto high beams is set to off. Drove from home to the office this morning in the dark, mostly using FSD - high beams never came on.

 

[Boza]

Installed 2022.20.9 last night, my car has FSD and auto high beams is set to off. Drove from home to the office this morning in the dark, mostly using FSD - high beams never came on.

This is great to hear! How about the auto wipers?

 

[ATPMSD]

This is great to hear! How about the auto wipers?

No rain today, but I was able to toggle between on and off.

 

[EVRider-FL]

Couple of years ago coming into Bozeman MT, dark, high winds, heavy rain, curvy road, 70 speed limit - one brave soul who I assume was local, pushed through with hazards at 45 MPH. I started to follow but did not feel comfortable even at this speed. Occurred to me to turn on TACC - it kept pace perfectly, better than I could. I do not think vision will do this anytime soon.

That makes me wonder: how much does the radar help the car stay in the lane when the lane markers are obscured by heavy rain? I remember once driving my 2018 Model S during a heavy FL downpour on a 2-lane road, and decided to try Autosteer. I had trouble seeing the center lane marker, but Autosteer had no trouble, and I'm sure it did better than I could have under those conditions. Obviously radar will help detect other vehicles and objects, but does it help with lane keeping?

 

[ATPMSD]

I can't image how radar ever was used for lane tracking; pretty sure lane tracking has always been a function of the camera. I think the Tesla Vision now replaces radar for TACC.

 

[KArnold]

In defense of Vision, we're speculating that it would not perform as well. I'd love to hear first-hand stories of people who used non_radar AP in moderate to heavy rain?

We know today sometimes in light rain we get the message "bad weather detected, AP disabled" or similar. But at what level of rain will non-radar AP fail?