Discussion: Tesla Vision system for Model 3/Y

[MikeyC]

So much panic over limited knowledge so far.

I would say "caution" instead of panic. I do think Tesla will make it right in the end but almost all initial reports are pretty bad. Panic would set in if Tesla is unable to fix the issues without putting radar back in. But we're not at that point. Yet.

Mike

 

[WhiteWi]

There are plenty of reports from owners of cars now without radar having significant issues with the vision only system. So it doesn't seem to be "panic over limited knowledge". I wouldn't consider it to be "panic" considering Tesla's history of changes that are major regressions.

Tesla is pretty straight forward on limitations as of now which will be addressed soon. The Roof is on fire for some people I guess.

 

[WhiteWi]

If you already own Tesla it doesn't effect you if you are thinking on buying Tesla and this is major no no for you then hold off or buy something else. Pretty easy. No need for over the board panic.

 

[rjpjnk]

Which group are you in?

 

[WhiteWi]

Which group are you in?

I have AP1 Model S and AP3 Model 3.

 

[jarred125]

Tesla is pretty straight forward on limitations as of now which will be addressed soon. The Roof is on fire for some people I guess.

The issue is with that last statement of "addressed soon".

Soon in software means a number of things, none of which generally are actually addressed in what most people consider soon. I am very hopeful, and provided that this change in safety features doesn't jack up my insurance rates significantly (just getting the Tesla was about $20 per 6 months than my last car) I will still accept the car. I just dislike the time frame at the moment.

 

[MikeyC]

Let's look at this logically. The assumption is that the thousands of 3/Y vehicles sitting "waiting for a part" were waiting for the radar unit. We don't know that for a fact but it seems logical at this point. I'm sure there were plenty of meetings talking about how to get those out to customers and save Q2 numbers. At some point, I bet Tesla took a gamble. The decision was that Tesla Vision was far enough along that they could get away with releasing cars without radar to customers. The backup plan? If they are unable to make Tesla Vision work as well as radar within a certain time period (let's say 90 days for grins), the cars still have the connector for radar: worst case they can call in non-radar owners for a retrofit: plug in the radar and download an update.

I'm sure the devs were asked "can you get Tesla Vision to work as well as radar within X days?" and the answer came back "Maybe". But it was good enough to try it and get those stagnant cars out. I don't agree with this mentality personally (releasing incomplete cars) but I guess they decided the tradeoff was worth it.

Mike

 

[beowulf573]

I'm sure the devs were asked "can you get Tesla Vision to work as well as radar within X days?" and the answer came back "Maybe". But it was good enough to try it and get those stagnant cars out. I don't agree with this mentality personally (releasing incomplete cars) but I guess they decided the tradeoff was worth it.

Mike

This is the only scenario that makes any sense. Otherwise, they would have finished the software, gotten verified by NHTSA and other organizations, and then shipped. If they had announced there was a shortage of radar components, it would ship without and would have limited functionality until they were available and then you could bring your car in for a service call to install it, I would have not placed my order on hold. But the lame justification for moving to Vision only and removing the lumbar support annoys me to no end. In particular after waiting so many years to purchase a Tesla and getting so close.

Right now they let me hold my order until early July, I'm not sure if they will let me hold it any longer. If the new update comes up, and if safety certifications are restored, and if I see third party confirmation that Tesla Vision brings the features close to parity, then I'll unblock my order. But sadly I'm not hopeful.

 

[linux-works]

The Roof is on fire for some people I guess.

I thought it was the hat that was on fire.

sigh. pesky unit vectors always annoyed me.

 

[MP3Mike]

on android, for example, you can always refuse updates

That doesn't seem to be true, at least not universally. On Samsung phones I have been involved with you get three chances to delay the update then it just installs whether you want it to or not. Just like updates with Windows 10.

 

[MikeyC]

I do believe in Tesla as a company so I have faith they will (eventually) make it right. Only question is, how long will it take and what measures will be required? I already got mine but if I had one on order, I'd probably accept it with that in mind. At least I'd have my car.

Mike

 

[linux-works]

Let's look at this logically. The assumption is that the thousands of 3/Y vehicles sitting "waiting for a part" were waiting for the radar unit. We don't know that for a fact but it seems logical at this point. I'm sure there were plenty of meetings talking about how to get those out to customers and save Q2 numbers. At some point, I bet Tesla took a gamble. The decision was that Tesla Vision was far enough along that they could get away with releasing cars without radar to customers. The backup plan? If they are unable to make Tesla Vision work as well as radar within a certain time period (let's say 90 days for grins), the cars still have the connector for radar: worst case they can call in non-radar owners for a retrofit: plug in the radar and download an update.

I wonder - did elon think to send mail out to current *employees* who have model 3/y, and ask if they are willing to donate their radar hardware to the pool, so those could go into customer cars?

part of me thinks that did cross his mind. I have no idea if such an email went out, but you know, it would almost make sense. the company MUST eat its own dogfood. (when I was at cisco, long long time ago, that was our motto and we installed the latest builds on our backbone and building routers. sometimes it would not go well! but that's what eat-your-dogfood means. feel the pain before the customer does and fix it before it gets into the field).

 

[MikeyC]

I wonder - did elon think to send mail out to current *employees* who have model 3/y, and ask if they are willing to donate their radar hardware to the pool, so those could go into customer cars?

part of me thinks that did cross his mind. I have no idea if such an email went out, but you know, it would almost make sense. the company MUST eat its own dogfood. (when I was at cisco, long long time ago, that was our motto and we installed the latest builds on our backbone and building routers. sometimes it would not go well! but that's what eat-your-dogfood means. feel the pain before the customer does and fix it before it gets into the field).

Interesting idea, although maybe not logistically possible. They had what, like 10,000 cars waiting? More? They probably wanted a solution for all of them. My guess is there was a period while the cars were stored that they waited for radar units to come in so they probably had a plan for quickly plugging them in once they were available. Might have even left the front cowl off/loose. But at some point it became clear they couldn't get the radar units in reasonable time so they went the Tesla Vision route. That seems to be Tesla's wheelhouse: "fix" everything with software.

My current mentality is: it'll all work out. Give it time. Either they'll work the kinks out of the software or they'll have to bite the bullet and retrofit radar into the ones where it's missing.

Mike

 

[linux-works]

Interesting idea, although maybe not logistically possible.

I know that if a company is pressed for parts, even engineering test beds can be raided for parts.

happens.

 

[schlacterdream]

There are plenty of reports from owners of cars now without radar having significant issues with the vision only system. So it doesn't seem to be "panic over limited knowledge". I wouldn't consider it to be "panic" considering Tesla's history of changes that are major regressions.

It would be good to see side by side video of with and without radar car if one of the youtubers could show the analysis.

 

[Gimmethecash]

I thought it was the hat that was on fire.

sigh. pesky unit vectors always annoyed me.

Only in Europe…

 

[epj3]

Tesla is pretty straight forward on limitations as of now which will be addressed soon. The Roof is on fire for some people I guess.

I'm curious about the logic here. It's obvious that every driver assist system relying on the cameras (autopilot, automatic wipers, automatic high beams) is proving to be inadequate if not bad. The bigger deal is that very important and effective modern safety features (e.g. automatic emergency braking) now also rely 100% on those exact cameras and systems.

How exactly is this to instill any confidence? If I need to make an assumption, it would be that AEB is now no more consistent or reliable than automatic wipers and high beams. It's that cruise control will be unavailable for most of our driving. Yet, I could buy an $18,000 Toyota Corolla and know without a doubt that every one of its equivalent driver assist and safety features will work without question.

Why is the roof on fire? Because my wife went from being talked into buying a Tesla, waiting 8 weeks to get one while sharing my car (which we never would own for regular commutes), and then having the rug pulled out from under us. Now what, buy whatever scraps are left on dealer lots or wait another 8+ weeks for a different car?

 

[linux-works]

to be honest, I'd feel a lot better about going vision-only if 2 things happened, at a minimum:

1) sensor redundancy; even if just the same class or type of sensors, but in redundant config, with some variation in angle and placement to help hedge against unknowns

2) automatic sensor cleaning of some sort; heating elements inside, wipers, sprays, movable films, but *something*. I'd include polarizing filters that can be active, in front of optical sensors

right now, the sensors are too minimal. I want to see MORE not less, guys.

and I'm serious about wipers outside or heaters inside camera bubbles. this MUST happen. cheapness on car vendors is the only reason it has not been standard.

 

[panpan1]

Or they are very confident with their vision only version of software that they tested internally. It’s a pretty big move and I doubt they would have gone all in without being 100% sure it will work.

How many times have we waited "a couple weeks" for something to be delivered and it is inevitably delayed?

 

[kpedraja]

IANAL, but I have to wonder if Tesla is opening itself up to a class action lawsuit if enough people who bought cars with a list of features find themselves without some of those features for an extended period of time, or potentially a permanent reduction in capability (there's nothing but crickets from the company on whether cars with HW2.5 have the processing horsepower to handle Tesla Vision for basic AP/TACC and other functions). I'll have to consult my original documents to see if I consented to allow Tesla to downgrade features as part of a broader software license agreement...