Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Do lower-power Supercharger locations reduce strain on the battery pack?

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Title says it all - for any Tesla driver who's car can charge at v3/250kw does opting for an urban supercharger (i.e. 72kw max charge rate) or v1 reduce the strain on the battery pack when compared to charging at a v3 location?

Understand this is probably deep into the weeds for most folks but for those who do - or anticipate - heavily utilizing the Supercharger network, is any meaningful benefit achieved from opting to charge at lower speed superchargers over higher speed ones, when practical?

Goal is to be as gentle on the battery as possible while also being constrained to use the superchargers for a high percent of my charging needs.

Thanks.
 
  • Like
  • Informative
Reactions: APotatoGod and Olle
Solution
Conclusion: Yes, using lower rated SCers will help ameliorate strain on the battery pack but the impact is believed to be minimal.

Another aspect not originally considered to reduce strain is the ‘band’ to conduct daily driving in with sub 50% being ideal.

Therefore the working idea is to use SCers as little as possible, and when one must, use lesser ones (ie Urban / V1) where practical. Use L2 charging to the largest extent possible, and when charging to your daily driving level, aim to keep it at 50% or under.


My charge limit is either 50%, or 90-100%+ if I am going to make a long trip.
Thanks; will try this.

Downside is it makes supercharging more tempting as it takes ~8m to go from 20% → 50% on a V3 and...
I know how to define a cycle - and that number I quoted is from Tessie, which pulls it from the car itself.

50k miles on the S from when I bought it, and was almost entirely road trips, I was doing AT LEAST 2 charges a day, of anywhere from 60-80% each. The number does seem a bit high, but not out of range for that kind of mileage and usage. About 8k miles was towing a Jeep Liberty behind the car, so the range sucked. Like 100 miles to a charge sucking. So yeah, it was using a LOT of cycles then.
You don't get the point. In battery degradation analysis a "cycle" means equivalent full cycle. Meaning 2 charges/discharges of 50% DOD (for example between 10%-60% SOC) only counts as 1 full cycle. Or put another way a charge from 10% to 60% and then discharge from 60% to 10% only counts as 1/2 of a cycle.

From your own numbers, 50k miles with 922 cycles means you are only getting 54 miles per full cycle! There is no way your consumption is that horrible. That means if you are charging 60%-80% DOD at superchargers (presumably you mean from 10% to 70% or 10% to 90%) you only go 32-43 miles between your charges! That means your Model S has less real world range than a first gen Leaf! I have a hard time believing your car can make road trips with so little range.

For your Model X 127k on 1220 cycles means you are only getting 104 miles per full charge (actually less, given this is an average and given the battery degrades, meaning you get less now vs when it was brand new). Just as a sanity check, there is little chance what you are saying is a "cycle" is a full cycle as typically defined in battery degradation analysis.

So if you are taking that number from Tessie, whatever they are spitting out is either horribly inaccurate in describing an equivalent full cycle, or their definition is not an equivalent full cycle, but rather counting partial cycles.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Mostly just the passage of time, and aggregate time spent at higher temperatures and higher states of charge.

View attachment 945542
@ucmndd - if I'm understanding what you posted, one should ideally not charge beyond ~55% when in a hot climate?

Moreover, assuming ~30% of the battery pack accounts for my average daily driving, it would then be ideal to target ~25% - 55% (i.e. charge to 55%) range than ~50% - 80% range?

I've got easy access to a few L2 charges close to home, and while they're on the slower side at 6kwh, they're easy to access and not a supercharger...as I assume too the slower rate of charge from the L2s is easier on the battery pack than the V3 supercharger down the road from me.
 
Upvote 0
You don't get the point. In battery degradation analysis a "cycle" means equivalent full cycle. Meaning 2 charges/discharges of 50% DOD (for example between 10%-60% SOC) only counts as 1 full cycle. Or put another way a charge from 10% to 60% and then discharge from 60% to 10% only counts as 1/2 of a cycle.

From your own numbers, 50k miles with 922 cycles means you are only getting 54 miles per full cycle! There is no way your consumption is that horrible. That means if you are charging 60%-80% DOD at superchargers (presumably you mean from 10% to 70% or 10% to 90%) you only go 32-43 miles between your charges! That means your Model S has less real world range than a first gen Leaf! I have a hard time believing your car can make road trips with so little range.

For your Model X 127k on 1220 cycles means you are only getting 104 miles per full charge (actually less, given this is an average and given the battery degrades, meaning you get less now vs when it was brand new). Just as a sanity check, there is little chance what you are saying is a "cycle" is a full cycle as typically defined in battery degradation analysis.

So if you are taking that number from Tessie, whatever they are spitting out is either horribly inaccurate in describing an equivalent full cycle, or their definition is not an equivalent full cycle, but rather counting partial cycles.

Here's the information I'm working with. If this is inaccurate, then take it up with the developer of Tessie, or with Tesla themselves b/c presumably Tessie is pulling this from the API anyway. I bought the car last May, shortly after it had the battery replaced under warranty. So for all practical purposes, the battery was at under 1000 miles and probably no more than 5 cycles at that point depending on how it was delivered to the car. If the information provided by the apps is inaccurate after that, I can't help that. I'm working with what I have available.

2023-06-13 13-02-05.jpeg
2023-06-13 13-04-14.png
2023-06-13 13-05-06.png
 
Upvote 0
Here's the information I'm working with. If this is inaccurate, then take it up with the developer of Tessie, or with Tesla themselves b/c presumably Tessie is pulling this from the API anyway. I bought the car last May, shortly after it had the battery replaced under warranty. So for all practical purposes, the battery was at under 1000 miles and probably no more than 5 cycles at that point depending on how it was delivered to the car. If the information provided by the apps is inaccurate after that, I can't help that. I'm working with what I have available.

View attachment 946582
If you click the "i" symbol next to "Estimated" it'll probably tell you the caveats to that number.
The consumption is a much more useful number. 21309 kWh, assuming your pack is 100 kWh (rough estimate) you have around 213 cycles on it, as typically defined in degradation analysis.
 
Upvote 0
The consumption is a much more useful number. 21309 kWh, assuming your pack is 100 kWh (rough estimate) you have around 213 cycles on it, as typically defined in degradation analysis.
@stopcrazypp - would it be correct to say if I had total usage 73,695kwh on my S75's battery, and assuming a usable average capacity of ~72kwh, there would be ~1,023 cycles on it [73,695 / 72 = 1,023.5]?
 
Upvote 0
@stopcrazypp - would it be correct to say if I had total usage 73,695kwh on my S75's battery, and assuming a usable average capacity of ~72kwh, there would be ~1,023 cycles on it [73,695 / 72 = 1,023.5]?
Actually the number to use would be the full capacity. Even though you don't use the full capacity in your car, most cell tests are done to complete discharge (2.5V per cell), so if you are comparing to cell data sheets, full capacity would be the number to use.

But that's still good enough as a rough approximation. Certainly far better than whatever Tessie is doing.

However using usable works better to compare with how the car counts SOC as displayed to end user, so I can see an advantage to using that also. But as mentioned the differences aren't that much.
 
Upvote 0
If you click the "i" symbol next to "Estimated" it'll probably tell you the caveats to that number.

The consumption is a much more useful number. 21309 kWh, assuming your pack is 100 kWh (rough estimate) you have around 213 cycles on it, as typically defined in degradation analysis.

Clicking that "i" comes up with this: "Using the vehicle's observed energy usage patterns" which is not really informative b/c the dots are from before I owned the car. Now if the app is not aware of the actual battery cycle count from the BMS, then this field is entirely worthless. A calculated value is trash b/c the estimation is based on only what the app has seen of how the vehicle has been used - which is constantly changing.

I will contact the developer and ask about this, b/c that is a significant amount of FUD if the Tesla API doesn't report actual BMS numbers.
 
Upvote 0
Clicking that "i" comes up with this: "Using the vehicle's observed energy usage patterns" which is not really informative b/c the dots are from before I owned the car. Now if the app is not aware of the actual battery cycle count from the BMS, then this field is entirely worthless. A calculated value is trash b/c the estimation is based on only what the app has seen of how the vehicle has been used - which is constantly changing.

I will contact the developer and ask about this, b/c that is a significant amount of FUD if the Tesla API doesn't report actual BMS numbers.
That kind of explains why the number is so far off, especially given you had the battery replaced. It seems they are just extrapolating using some formula based on the lifetime miles of the car (not the pack), but that note is so vague it's hard to tell what they really mean. That probably generally works fine if the car had Tessie active throughout its whole ownership and the battery was never replaced, but obviously that doesn't apply to your case.

The consumption number however I presume describes the entire consumption for the new battery. If that is the case, the ~213 cycles estimate I gave should generally be in the ballpark of how many equivalent full cycles your new battery has seen (presuming it is a new one, not refurbished, in which case there may be more cycles from before it was installed in the car).
 
Upvote 0
The battery is a 350v 90kwh, installed between March and May last year. I believe it to be a brand-new pack, which is further backed up by the fact that this car was a 60kwh RWD that they then nerfed the range on me (see my signature line) after I had been driving on the pack for more than a month. The screens now report the car is a 90RWD as appropriate - even though this configuration was never officially offered.

So based on that - I'm inclined to believe your number of ~213 cycles is much closer to accurate. There was a significant number of cycles where I was towing heavy and only getting about 100-120 miles on a full charge, but thankfully that trip is over and I'm not doing THAT again anytime soon.
 
Upvote 0
The battery is a 350v 90kwh, installed between March and May last year. I believe it to be a brand-new pack, which is further backed up by the fact that this car was a 60kwh RWD that they then nerfed the range on me (see my signature line) after I had been driving on the pack for more than a month. The screens now report the car is a 90RWD as appropriate - even though this configuration was never officially offered.

So based on that - I'm inclined to believe your number of ~213 cycles is much closer to accurate. There was a significant number of cycles where I was towing heavy and only getting about 100-120 miles on a full charge, but thankfully that trip is over and I'm not doing THAT again anytime soon.
Sorry I was using mobile when I posted that and didn't see your signature (so I assumed it was a 100kWh pack). If it's a 90 pack (as below a 90 pack had ~86kWh total, ~82kWh usable) then it's closer to 21309kWh/86kWh = ~248 cycles. The exact number will vary depending on what your real capacity is (it will decline as battery ages, so the average capacity will be lower than the brand new number).
Tesla’s hacked Battery Management System exposes the real usable capacity of its battery packs

As a sanity check, that works out to your average full range being 45436 miles / ~248 = ~183 miles average if you were to charge completely and drain to absolute zero. If considering usable, ~174 miles. Your towing usage may have dragged down the average, but that still seems reasonable for a S 90, certainly far more reasonable than the 54 miles previously calculated.
 
Upvote 0
@ucmndd - if I'm understanding what you posted, one should ideally not charge beyond ~55% when in a hot climate?

Moreover, assuming ~30% of the battery pack accounts for my average daily driving, it would then be ideal to target ~25% - 55% (i.e. charge to 55%) range than ~50% - 80% range?

I've got easy access to a few L2 charges close to home, and while they're on the slower side at 6kwh, they're easy to access and not a supercharger...as I assume too the slower rate of charge from the L2s is easier on the battery pack than the V3 supercharger down the road from me.
Yes---keeping it in the lower range is the result of long investigation by people on some other threads here, primarily lead by AAKEE (who has personal battery experiments outside the car!)

And additionally the Tesla displayed state of charge is actually a bit higher than that shown when measured on 'scientific' state of charge (what's used in the papers) because of the ~4.5% buffer (when new) below displayed 0%. So I set my max limit to 50%, not 55% so I'm on the left side of the ledge for sure. So even more ideal for you is 20%-50%.

My charge limit is either 50%, or 90-100%+ if I am going to make a long trip. Since there is little degradation difference between 70,80 or 90% (and some other papers show worse at 80 than 90!) I don't often see the use case for the intermediate values. If I'm making a long trip, I want as much as I can reasonably take so I can avoid paid charging and be open to unexpected side-trips. If I'm around town and coming back home, than 50% is more than enough for me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: houstonian
Upvote 0
Conclusion: Yes, using lower rated SCers will help ameliorate strain on the battery pack but the impact is believed to be minimal.

Another aspect not originally considered to reduce strain is the ‘band’ to conduct daily driving in with sub 50% being ideal.

Therefore the working idea is to use SCers as little as possible, and when one must, use lesser ones (ie Urban / V1) where practical. Use L2 charging to the largest extent possible, and when charging to your daily driving level, aim to keep it at 50% or under.


My charge limit is either 50%, or 90-100%+ if I am going to make a long trip.
Thanks; will try this.

Downside is it makes supercharging more tempting as it takes ~8m to go from 20% → 50% on a V3 and that’s in the zone where 250kwh is primed.
The question remains whether the car is there to serve you or if you are there to serve the car. 🙂
You’re not wrong; thread title originally had “when practical” in the title to note this point.

My personal take is as long as I’ve got enough charge for my daily driving I don’t really care what band it sits in. If one band is easier on the battery than another, no issues targeting it.

The downside of a 20/50 band vs a 50/80 band (for an assumed 30% daily driving need) is what happens if plans changed and you need more. 50% gives overhead, 20% not so much.

Thinking this is where the SCers provide a hedge as if I do need more on the fly, 8m will get me back up to 50% and I’m generally in areas where V3’s are ubiquitous.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: DrChaos
Upvote 0
Solution
All this worry about charging to 80% or 50%? 250kW or 72kW SuperCharging?

Sounds similar to I want to lower my chances of a serious car accident so I will drive less, stay close to home and off the highways. Won't go on road trips.

If EV's are to be viable, drive the car, enjoy life, don't be that crazy about a percent or two future degradation here and there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: geordi
Upvote 0
All this worry about charging to 80% or 50%? 250kW or 72kW SuperCharging?

Sounds similar to I want to lower my chances of a serious car accident so I will drive less, stay close to home and off the highways. Won't go on road trips.

If EV's are to be viable, drive the car, enjoy life, don't be that crazy about a percent or two future degradation here and there.
keeping SoC under 50% most of the time will lower calendar degradation in half. That's not insignificant. There is a step between <55% (scientific) and above 55%. It will mean 7% vs 14% down the line.

It's like brushing and flossing your teeth, except it takes no extra time. And for many people it has no effect on daily life. I have used 50% almost every day and never once wished I had charged above 50% that morning. I thought originally there might be a little sacrifice but it turned out to be zero. I only go below 20% when I intentionally don't recharge to get a wide SOC band for the battery management to recalibrate.

For me since supercharging is so rare (have never done so in a year) I am not going to worry about it and will do whatever the system tells me to do if I ever do. But the 3LR has so much range, it will be unlikely. And by maintaining my battery health the chance of needing the SC is low.
 
Upvote 0
All this worry about charging to 80% or 50%? 250kW or 72kW SuperCharging?

Sounds similar to I want to lower my chances of a serious car accident so I will drive less, stay close to home and off the highways. Won't go on road trips.

If EV's are to be viable, drive the car, enjoy life, don't be that crazy about a percent or two future degradation here and there.
A fair point - but central to my question is the implied "when practical" to remind the systems we build are to serve us, not so we can serve them.

For my [perhaps unique] situation, a fair degree of latitude exists in selecting supercharger locations that are functionally identical from a practical standpoint (i.e. the amenities are comparable, ease of access is comparable, etc.) but will differ in terms of urban/v1/2/3...Plano TX is the go-to example of this for me where both an Urban and V3 supercharger exist in close proximity to either amenities or my work site meaning it's six one way and a half dozen the other.

Therefore the question arises: if one has multiple comparable superchargers to easily select from and one anticipates relying on supercharging to a heavier extent than the average driver, is there any practical benefit to opting for slower SCers over faster ones...thus the thread.

In terms of daily driving - something I did not think about when starting this thread - you've got the same dynamic: if one only needs 30%, does it make sense to target one band of state-of-charge over another? Appears the answer is "yes" to this and this is particularly important to those in hotter climates (summers AZ, NV, TX, and FL in my case).

So going back to the original point - this is more like a 'best practice' question vs God, from the Mount of Sinai, commanding "thou shalt ALWAYS do ____" in terms of trying to figure out ways to EASILY adjust my preferences/logic to preserve my battery.

And as @DrChaos notes, "keeping SoC under 50% most of the time will lower calendar degradation in half. That's not insignificant. There is a step between <55% (scientific) and above 55%. It will mean 7% vs 14% down the line", which to a high mileage driver without the good-old 8y UNLIMITED mileage battery warranty, is material.
 
Upvote 0
Therefore the question arises: if one has multiple comparable superchargers to easily select from and one anticipates relying on supercharging to a heavier extent than the average driver, is there any practical benefit to opting for slower SCers over faster ones...thus the thread.
in short: yes

higher charging rates show more cyclic aging per cycle in scientific tests, all else being equal.

If you have a 75 kWh pack, then a 75 kW charge will be '1C' in battery nomenclature (meaning full charge in 1 hour nominally), and above that is where the speed of charging/discharging starts to result in faster degradation.

A caveat, the research literature tends to show symmetrical charge and discharge rates, whereas in practical use the discharge rate will be more intermittent and slower. I don't know if that makes a big difference.
 
Upvote 0
And as @DrChaos notes, "keeping SoC under 50% most of the time will lower calendar degradation in half. That's not insignificant. There is a step between <55% (scientific) and above 55%. It will mean 7% vs 14% down the line", which to a high mileage driver without the good-old 8y UNLIMITED mileage battery warranty, is material.
I would like to see very clear scientific crowd sourced data on this. Few people keep keep charging below 55% on an ongoing basis and yet have about 5%-10% degradation after 100K miles. There are folks with 130K to 369K miles showing off their cars and typical degradation reported maxes out somewhere around 10%, typically. Tesla published a report here, where Model S long term degradation after 200K miles is 12%.

Perhaps this is due to the 200K miles and all the cycles vs SOC being higher than 55%? Age is what Tesla's notes cite.

Here is the report page 39. https://www.tesla.com/ns_videos/2022-tesla-impact-report-highlights.pdf
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
I would like to see very clear scientific crowd sourced data on this. Few people keep keep charging below 55% on an ongoing basis and yet have about 5%-10% degradation after 100K miles.
There is a huge thread (or more than one) on the model 3 battery subforum that's lasted a few years. Member AAKEE is the definitive analyst of the research literature, and personally conducts some scientific tests. The source is from controlled battery research tests from scientific labs which consistently show the same phenomenon on calendar aging.


That depends purely on time, state of charge, and temperature (temperature is a major effect too). Those are not controlled in people's reported use in field so it's difficult to see the pattern, but the phenomenon is real and built into the chemical facts. The calendar degradation rate is pretty flat between 60%-100%, but about 2x as high as 50% or below (this has to do with some complex chemical stuff happening at electrodes vs voltage). Some research reports, but not others, show a dip so that 80% is a bit worse than 70% or 90% for calendar aging. That's still unclear, but if it were me and I needed a higher upper charge limit than 50%, I would avoid around 80% and choose higher or lower for the car to sit at for a while.

Cyclic degradation (from charging) is separated from calendar degradation (from time) scientifically.

For most people, unless they drive commercially long distances all the time, calendar degradation is more significant than cyclic degradation. Though research results also suggest that shallow cycling at low state of charge is also better to lower degradation.

Myself personally my charge limit is 50% unless I need to make long trips, in which case I charge it up to 95-100%. I've done this since I've owned the car, nearly exactly 1 year now. My degradation (though BMS calibration makes this inaccurate) is about 2.7% (10/358 miles). Calendar degradation goes as sqrt(time) so in 4 years its 2*2.7 and 16 years it's 4 * 2.7 about. If I had charged up to 80% like most people and had it sit around there most of the time (common), it would be about 5-6% which is typical experience.

Also, with summer here or coming (still cool in san diego, we get summer late), lowering the average state of charge is more important when average battery temperatures are higher. The degradation rate multiplies, like many chemical reactions.

There are folks with 130K to 369K miles showing off their cars and typical degradation reported maxes out somewhere around 10%, typically. Tesla published a report here, where Model S long term degradation after 200K miles is 12%.

Miles is not the same as time, which is the effect I'm talking about where being under 55% is distinctly better (there is a shelf in calendar degradation rate about there in NCA batteries). A car whose batteries are not that old and experiences more cold will degrade less than a car whose batteries are older and in hotter temperatures.

Overall Tesla has good battery management, and most people's experience with degradation is not poor, unlike the air cooled Nissan Leaf. (BTW that shows the huge effect of temperature on calendar aging rates.). Average public behavior will get decent results.

People who read forums here though are more of the committed nerd types, and they can handle the science facts to optimize it even better. I'm thinking about what happens after 8 years. At that point different management and charging procedures will start to show different results, many will have 15-20% degradation, and I hope to have 10% or less (7.5% calendar 2.5% cyclic?). That will eventually make a difference in resale value. People with typical charging procedures will have 15% calendar and maybe 3% cyclic.

In practical use, people who drive more also tend to have a lower average state of charge, as the car spends more time being discharged off its maximum. That helps calendar aging if the car spends much of its time below 50% because it was previously driven that day. That obscures the effect of calendar vs cyclic aging and people see low degradation even though they drive frequently with their new car.

Somewhat unexpectedly, the people who fastidiously recharge up to 80% and don't drive much, thinking they are 'babying' the car, will have the worst results on battery aging.


Perhaps this is due to the 200K miles and all the cycles vs SOC being higher than 55%? Age is what Tesla's notes cite.

Here is the report page 39. https://www.tesla.com/ns_videos/2022-tesla-impact-report-highlights.pdf
The Note on that page mentions that 'mileage is only one factor in battery capacity retention; battery age is also a major factor'.

A 200K 4 year old car will have less aging than a 200K mile 10 year old car. People are used to miles being the primary determinant of degradation from experience with ICE cars. Though even with ICE cars the right metric is probably hours in use, but that is not measured anywhere. For EVs, time itself matters the most, and the conditions of storage are not something that people are used to thinking about very much, even though that matters the most for the battery cells.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Cyclic degradation (from charging) is separated from calendar degradation (from time) scientifically.

For most people, unless they drive commercially long distances all the time, calendar degradation is more significant than cyclic degradation. Though research results also suggest that shallow cycling at low state of charge is also better to lower degradation.

Myself personally my charge limit is 50% unless I need to make long trips, in which case I charge it up to 95-100%. I've done this since I've owned the car, nearly exactly 1 year now. My degradation (though BMS calibration makes this inaccurate) is about 2.7% (10/358 miles). Calendar degradation goes as sqrt(time) so in 4 years its 2*2.7 and 16 years it's 4 * 2.7 about. If I had charged up to 80% like most people and had it sit around there most of the time (common), it would be about 5-6% which is typical experience.

Also, with summer here or coming (still cool in san diego, we get summer late), lowering the average state of charge is more important when average battery temperatures are higher. The degradation rate multiplies, like many chemical reactions.

Miles is not the same as time, which is the effect I'm talking about where being under 55% is distinctly better (there is a shelf in calendar degradation rate about there in NCA batteries). A car whose batteries are not that old and experiences more cold will degrade less than a car whose batteries are older and in hotter temperatures.

...[snip]...

A 200K 4 year old car will have less aging than a 200K mile 10 year old car. People are used to miles being the primary determinant of degradation from experience with ICE cars. Though even with ICE cars the right metric is probably hours in use, but that is not measured anywhere. For EVs, time itself matters the most, and the conditions of storage are not something that people are used to thinking about very much, even though that matters the most for the battery cells.
@DrChaos - thanks for the detailed post.

My current operating m/o is limiting charge to 52% (currently on assignment in the HOT HOT HOT gulf coast) for daily driving.

When needing to go further afield, I'll generally charge to 100% however once I hit full I depart within minutes, if not immediately.

Suspect I'm on the higher mileage side of drivers - my June mileage was north of 5.5k miles - and I'm finding my SC vs non-SC usage is running ~75% / 25% respectively.

TeslaFi reports a range loss of 7.37miles or ~2.1% (348.90 → 341.53) over the ~10k miles I've driven the car since taking delivery in mid May.

July 2023 Battery Report X LR.pngJuly 2023 Charge Report X LR.png
 
  • Like
Reactions: geordi and DrChaos
Upvote 0