Does exceeding 80mph or unbuckling seatbelt count against FSD?

[AlijahSimon]

We've all seen the email from Tesla involving inattentiveness around the internet:

Hello,

You are receiving this email because telemetry from your vehicle was flagged for improper usage of the FSD Beta feature.

Specifically, while using the FSD Beta feature, you or another driver of your vehicle received:

• • Two or more “strikeouts,” which resulted in the loss of Autopilot availability for that drive; or
  • At least one “strike” per 5 km (about 3 miles) driven on Autopilot, which is a visual and audible warning that requires attention.

This is your only warning to please keep your hands on the wheel and remain attentive at all times when using Autopilot. The car is not autonomous, and if you aren’t paying attention, a crash could happen, and you or others could get hurt, or worse, so failure to abide by this warning will result in removal of the FSD Beta feature from your vehicle.

The Tesla Team

While I have not personally received this email, it does raise a question:

Does pressing the accelerator to force Autopilot to exceed 80 MPH count as a strikeout (normally this puts you in Autopilot jail) and does unbuckling your seatbelt with Autopilot engaged count as a strikeout? It would be pretty awful if someone could essentially revoke your FSD Beta access by unbuckling your seatbelt multiple times as a prank (aka kids in the back seat) or if your foot slipped and pressed on the accelerator pedal when NoA was at max speed.

Additionally, does anyone know if those audible "apply turning force to wheel" alerts that result from Autopilot under-confidence (aka, near cones or making a turn) count as a strike? These are obviously not our fault in any way, shape, or form, so that would be unfortunate.

Thanks to anybody who knows these answers.

 

[Tam]

Does pressing the accelerator to force Autopilot to exceed 80 MPH count as a strikeout (normally this puts you in Autopilot jail)...

You just answered yourself in the parentheses "Autopilot jail", so: Yes.

...unbuckling your seatbelt with Autopilot engaged count as a strikeout?...

Yes.

...prank...

You just answered yourself. Being a pilot tester is a serious business that could result in deaths. Prank does not help to prevent deaths.

...foot slipped..

Less skillful pilot testers may have passed the safety score on the first round but may flunk on the second round with the actual firmware.

 

[Tam]

...Additionally, does anyone know if those audible "apply turning force to wheel" alerts that result from Autopilot under-confidence (aka, near cones or making a turn) count as a strike? These are obviously not our fault in any way, shape, or form, so that would be unfortunate...

I think the two error messages are different. The "apply turning force to wheel" is because of the user's error.

The other one "take over immediately: Autopilot can not proceed" is triggered by the firmware's inability to deal with a particular scenario (blinded by low sunlight, can't figure out what next at an intersection...) and not because of the user's error that ignores the torque warning.

The torque error would be a strike that can accumulate to expel the user from the program.

The "take over immediately: Autopilot can not proceed" is not a strike.

 

[ChimpledPot]

You just answered yourself in the parentheses "Autopilot jail", so: Yes.

Yes.

You just answered yourself. Being a pilot tester is a serious business that could result in deaths. Prank does not help to prevent deaths.

Less skillful pilot testers may have passed the safety score on the first round but may flunk on the second round with the actual firmware.

Keep in mind all these answers are guesses, OP. No one knows for sure the exact conditions until someone does these things and gets penalized for it.

 

[AlijahSimon]

Keep in mind all these answers are guesses, OP. No one knows for sure the exact conditions until someone does these things and gets penalized for it.

yeah, he doesn't seem to know what he's talking about. Hopefully we get clarification from Tesla soon.

 

[EVNow]

Thanks to anybody who knows these answers.

Nobody who isn't part of the fsd team at tesla "knows" the answers. But I hope all these would be strikes against the person having Tesla. Doesn't sound like a safe tester.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

You just answered yourself in the parentheses "Autopilot jail", so: Yes.

Email says “while using FSD Beta” for the strikeout to count though. And on the freeway you definitely aren’t using FSD Beta!

Hopefully we’ll find out soon. Seems like people will exceed 80mph and lock themselves out all the time. So should find out soon.

 

[Tam]

Email says “while using FSD Beta” for the strikeout to count though. And on the freeway you definitely aren’t using FSD Beta!

Hopefully we’ll find out soon. Seems like people will exceed 80mph and lock themselves out all the time. So should find out soon.

People maybe confused that because highway module is not city streets module, so it's logical to think that highway module is not FSD beta.

The fact is both are currently running FSD beta with pure vision. Prior to this, highway module still used radar with Autopilot speed up to 90 MPH and Following Distance as low as 1 while city streets have used pure vision.

Not any more. The note is very clear on this.

The confusion might stem from the promise of "single stack". No these 2 modules are not one single stack just yet. Single stack is estimated to arrive around FSD beta 11 or so.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

The fact is both are currently running FSD beta with pure vision. Prior to this, highway module still used radar with Autopilot speed up to 90 MPH and Following Distance as low as 1 while city streets have used pure vision.

That is the question - but are you sure about your assertion?

There are plenty of people out there running regular AP with Tesla Vision with no radar. Given that it’s allegedly not single stack, I assume that when we’re in the freeway we’re not running FSD Beta, and the visualizations, FWIW, support that.

Just because you are using Tesla Vision does not imply you are using FSD Beta.

I’m not saying the Highway module is identical to that being used by people outside the beta - but it’s probably the same code base, just a different version.

But I definitely don’t know. My only contention is that it’s quite reasonable to think you might not be using FSD Beta on the freeway; you are just using Tesla Vision with AP, just like many other (unfortunate) Tesla drivers.

 

[Tam]

...you are just using Tesla Vision with AP, just like many other (unfortunate) Tesla drivers....

I think we now all agree that the current FSD beta runs on Pure Vision with in-active radar whether the car has a physical radar or not.

Pure Vision is settled.

---------------

Now going onto FSD beta:

If I understand you, you further want to differentiate that Highway Pure Vision is not FSD beta while City Streets Pure Vision is FSD beta.

If I understand you, you claim that the current FSD beta version means

FSD beta in City Streets

and not FSD beta on Highways.

If I understand you: To apply that logic to this thread, drivers are free to get Autopilot jail and not be penalized as a "strike" or "strikeout" because highways are not FSD beta.

 

[PDX-Y]

yeah, he doesn't seem to know what he's talking about. Hopefully we get clarification from Tesla soon.

What would you expect to hear? Tesla telling you that it's OK to unbuckle your seatbelt or drive dangerously fast? If they say anything at all, it will be "don't do that!". No one is going to come out with an official statement that "AP doesn't detect this specific dangerous behavior", that's ridiculous.

 

[bobby g]

I just completed ca-az and back with the beta. Twice I hit 81 (the trucks are still up ones butt at that does) and got dumped. I figured it out on the second - can't re-engage! I get the apply message regularly when my hands are on the wheel because I have always had a light touch. My score is still 99 and I haven't received that email.

As an aside, sitting in the lot waiting for my wife the windshield cleaned itself - did the camera tell the car to do that?

 

[Need]

As an aside, sitting in the lot waiting for my wife the windshield cleaned itself - did the camera tell the car to do that?

It cleans itself with windshield fluid or just did a few wipes? The 2nd one is just because you have AUTO windshield on. It will start using it if the camera thinks the vision is not clear. For example, if condensation starts to form outside the windshield while you are sitting inside waiting, it will do a wipe or 2 to clear it. But I think it only works if you are sitting in the drive seat. If you move to the passenger seat and wait there, the car will start to go to sleep and turn off climate and auto wipe will also not activate.

 

[Tam]

Reports are starting pouring in with FSD beta stricter rules that drivers now get more warnings than traditional public FSD releases (both in the cities and highways).

Thus, at present, there are options if you want to exceed 80 MPH or unbuckle seat belt without counting as FSD beta penalties:

1) Don't enroll in FSD beta: You can't be expelled if you are not in it in the first place.
2) Disenroll from FSD beta: Voluntarily quitting the stricter rules
3) You don't have to disenroll but don't use FSD beta: There's an option to turn on/turn off FSD beta in the Autopilot menu. Turning it off does not dis-enroll you from the program, it just shuts off FSD beta until you want to turn it on again.
4) You don't have to turn off the FSD beta button, just use TACC and not use the AutoSteer feature. Of course, you can do the manual without both the TACC and Autosteer too!

 

[Marcus Adolfsson]

I have exceeded 80 mph on the Interstate twice (since FSD Beta) and been put in AP jail for the rest of the drive. Very easy to do if speed is set to 79 mph and the car phantom brakes aggressively, so you blip the throttle to avoid getting rear ended! I have not received any indication of that counting as a strike for FSD revocation.

 

[mmanner]

I have exceeded 80 mph on the Interstate twice (since FSD Beta) and been put in AP jail for the rest of the drive. Very easy to do if speed is set to 79 mph and the car phantom brakes aggressively, so you to blip the throttle to not get rear ended! I have not received any indication of that counting as a strike for FSD revocation.

Me too, exceeded 80 using FSD, couldn't use AP for rest of drive, but apparently no strike. Pre FSD, when I once exceed 90 while on autosteer, also couldn't use until drive was over, but it did not impact my safety score for that drive, which was 100.

 

[PDX-Y]

3) You don't have to disenroll but don't use FSD beta: There's an option to turn on/turn off FSD beta in the Autopilot menu. Turning it off does not dis-enroll you from the program, it just shuts off FSD beta until you want to turn it on again.

FWIW: reports seem inconsistent as to whether this is sufficient. There are people who claim to have gotten AP lockouts when running the old stack (e.g. on the highway, or with FSD disabled) and yet were still kicked out of the beta program. But you aren't the only one claiming that they're separated either. Data is unclear, and obviously no one is willing to do the experiment to find out.

 

[JonNRb]

I have exceeded 80 mph on the Interstate twice (since FSD Beta) and been put in AP jail for the rest of the drive. Very easy to do if speed is set to 79 mph and the car phantom brakes aggressively, so you blip the throttle to avoid getting rear ended! I have not received any indication of that counting as a strike for FSD revocation.

Me too, exceeded 80 using FSD, couldn't use AP for rest of drive, but apparently no strike. Pre FSD, when I once exceed 90 while on autosteer, also couldn't use until drive was over, but it did not impact my safety score for that drive, which was 100.

I've never trusted AP to drive >90mph and I just got VO AP with FSD beta and haven't pushed it past 80 yet so I haven't experienced this. Is it the instant you exceed SPEED_MAX that you get put in AP time-out or does it give you some heads up like the "pay attention" warnings do?

 

[Tam]

I've never trusted AP to drive >90mph and I just got VO AP with FSD beta and haven't pushed it past 80 yet so I haven't experienced this. Is it the instant you exceed SPEED_MAX that you get put in AP time-out or does it give you some heads up like the "pay attention" warnings do?

This is not the "Speed Max" that I set below the 80 MPH threshold for radarless. I can set it at 5 MPH and manually exceed that to 80 MPH in FSD beta with no Strikeout at all.

In this particular Strikeout (Autopilot Jail, automatically forced disengagement for the rest of the trip), once the alarm goes off, I cannot change your behavior to recover it for the rest of the drive.

This happens if I manually press on the accelerator during an Autopilot session that exceeds its automation limit (90 MPH for radar and 80 MPH for radarless).

So let's talk about FSD beta driving on Autopilot at 80 MPH: Nice and quiet with no error message. I would then go ahead and press on the accelerator to 81 MPH and the Strikeout would happen right away. There's no second chance to recover it. I then have to put the car in "Park" to start to use Autopilot again.

If I got Strikeout too many times (some say 2, some say 3) then although the FSD beta is revoked, the public FSD is still active so I can still put the car in "Park" to start to use Autopilot again.

 

[JonNRb]

Strikeout would happen right away

That right there is what I was wondering about. Sounds like the same hairpin trigger that exists for seatbelt unbuckling. Lame...