Why is it disgusting? Tesla own the car (trade-in etc), they remove FSD, then sell the car on without FSD. Not clear how that is a problem.
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Does Tesla remove FSD from third-party dealers
- Thread starter Baxterdown
- Start date
Some are thinking Tesla are doing this when it doesn’t pass through Teslas hands, there’s little evidence to support that so your view is the same as mine, Tesla can do what they want when they own the car
Where this goes wrong however is Tesla don’t update the car straight away. They effectively sell the car into the trade with features physically enabled but removed from the spec and subsequently only turn them off when the new owner eventually registers the car. This is the bad practice by Tesla as anyone looking at the car will see the features on the car and it’s guess work to know if they’re there to stay or not. It should be a simple fix for Tesla to do it right away but they don’t seem to want to bother.
jeffro01
Active Member
Um... Because charging for the same thing multiple times is unethical and simply wrong. I get this is an echo chamber where Tesla is infallible, Elon is a god, and blah blah blah... Anyone who thinks it's okay for Tesla to remove a feature delivered with a car just because it touched their hands at some point in the future is just as unethical and wrong as Tesla is for doing this.
Jeff
So if Ford get a truck via trade-jn and change the wheels before reselling it, that is unethical?
If you rent a movie to watch on a streaming service over the weekend, is it unethical for you to have to pay for it again next month?
Why are these any different from what Tesla is doing?
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
Are we talking about the FSD beta program or just FSD in general like you would purchase with the car?
FSD Beta is just that - a limited beta release restricted to people who sign up and agree to the terms of the program so I would fully expect it to be removed on sale of the car.
For other software packages I would not expect, however we're entering a bit of a different world here. Unlike virtually every other car on the road, Tesla remains in 'contact' with their cars and regularly updates and changes the software. Legally, software is treated differently than physical goods. When you 'buy' software, you are generally not buying the software itself; you're buying a license to use that software under the terms in the software license. Yes, that 48 page list of fine print that we all skip over and simply click 'agree' at the end.
Has anyone read the Tesla terms in their contract? It's possible that they explicitly state that any software upgrades are solely for the use of the purchaser and will be removed on transfer of the vehicle. I would consider this on the slimy side but perfectly legal.
All this raises another question - how much of a Tesla do you ‘own?’ With a traditional car you purchased it, the software was set, probably for the life of the car and you could do whatever you want and sell it. With a Tesla, the software is an integral part of driving the car. Tesla requires you to keep the software up to date as part of the warranty, so they can (And have) significantly change how the car behaves after you purchase. If the software is required for the car to function and you don’t own the software, do you really own the car? I have no idea where this stands legally and it probably hasn’t been decided because it hasn’t been dealt with before.
FSD Beta is just that - a limited beta release restricted to people who sign up and agree to the terms of the program so I would fully expect it to be removed on sale of the car.
For other software packages I would not expect, however we're entering a bit of a different world here. Unlike virtually every other car on the road, Tesla remains in 'contact' with their cars and regularly updates and changes the software. Legally, software is treated differently than physical goods. When you 'buy' software, you are generally not buying the software itself; you're buying a license to use that software under the terms in the software license. Yes, that 48 page list of fine print that we all skip over and simply click 'agree' at the end.
Has anyone read the Tesla terms in their contract? It's possible that they explicitly state that any software upgrades are solely for the use of the purchaser and will be removed on transfer of the vehicle. I would consider this on the slimy side but perfectly legal.
All this raises another question - how much of a Tesla do you ‘own?’ With a traditional car you purchased it, the software was set, probably for the life of the car and you could do whatever you want and sell it. With a Tesla, the software is an integral part of driving the car. Tesla requires you to keep the software up to date as part of the warranty, so they can (And have) significantly change how the car behaves after you purchase. If the software is required for the car to function and you don’t own the software, do you really own the car? I have no idea where this stands legally and it probably hasn’t been decided because it hasn’t been dealt with before.
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
If Ford bought the truck on trade in, swapped out the wheels and then sold it - totally fine.
If they advertised the truck with one set of wheels and then sold it with another set, yes, unethical (And likely illegal.)
If they sold the truck with a set of wheels, found out that the original owner sold it to a third party and came and removed them that would clearly be illegal.
See my above post - software is treated as intellectual property, not physical property so the rules are generally different and not so clear cut, which is part of the problem here.
tesla is selling the same item twice on the same car.....doubling dipping, completely illegal
But they bought it back before they sold it again. There is nothing illegal in that.
Using the analogy from above:
- Ford sells a truck with upgraded wheels to customer A.
- Ford takes the truck as a trade-in, so they buy it back, from customer A.
- Ford takes the upgrade wheels off and puts the standard wheels back on.
- Ford sells the vehicle to customer B.
- Customer B buys the upgraded wheels that Ford took off above.
But Tesla DO NOT remove ANY software purchases when you (the owner) sell the car to another party, so there is nothing illegal going on. In fact Tesla do NOT treat software options on the car as IP ... they treat them the same as hardware options. If you buy option X for your car, hardware or software, you get to sell the car with that option.
The ONLY time Tesla strip options from the car is if they themselves have purchased the car (e.g. as a trade-in), and then (after changing the configuration) sell the car on (typically to a dealer or broker who then resells it).
None of this is illegal or even immoral. It's exactly the same as any other car maker handles hardware options.
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Nonsense. If an ICE car is purchased with an optional larger engine (a common option), the original purchaser will pay extra for it. Then, when the original owner resells it, they (presumably) get more for the car because they are selling this option as well . Exactly the same as Tesla.
If, while Tesla own the car (e.g. via a trade-in), they swap out the engine for a smaller one, then advertise and sell the car as having only the smaller engine, but offer the larger engine as an upgrade, then again there is nothing illegal or underhand about this. And that's exactly what they are doing with FSD. How is this illegal?
No, they dont. They explicitly state, and have done so many times, that the software option "follows" the car as it is resold. Just like a hardware option. If/when I sell my M3, I can advertise it as having FSD, and (hopefully) get extra $$ for the car as a result.
I may have misunderstood. if tesla buys the car they should be able to remove whatever they want if the new buyer is aware. where is becomes shady is if tesla doesn't give the original seller full value for the fsd when sold back to tesla because tesla is going to sell that same "used" feature back to the new owner on the same car for full price
It’s not shady, it’s certainly not the shady part of what Tesla are doing.
The only issue as I see it is Tesla remove the option but take far too long to physically disable it in the car. The analogy is Tesla advertise the car with 19” wheels but when the dealer takes delivery they think great, 20” wheels. They ignore the software specification/description and sell the car saying it has 20” wheels but 2 weeks later, overnight, the wheels are magically changed to the 19” wheels Tesla always said the car had. Every dealer of Tesla are should know that’s how it can work now and not make the mistake, but many don’t and ignore what they’re told by Tesla and over advertise, or more shady, not say and let the buyer think it’s better than it is and buy the car, the dealer knowing the spec will change but thinks the new buyer will either not know or just blame Tesla
sleepydoc
Well-Known Member
Except I’ve seen at least a couple of threads here where Tesla appears to have removed software in 3rd party sales.
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Can you provide a source? I’ve looked through all my documents and found nothing and the evidence appears to say otherwise.
Indeed, and these stories break down into several categories:Except I’ve seen at least a couple of threads here where Tesla appears to have removed software in 3rd party sales.
I'm a dealer and Tesla removed my car's FSD
There are other stories like this one but as a dealer I wanted to share a unique, negative experience I'm having. My very small dealership purchased a 2018 Tesla Model 3 at Manheim auto auction recently. The vehicle was advertised showing FSD in the images included during the sale. I verified...
(A) The dealer represented the option as present when it was not (either accidentally or fraudulently).
(B) The dealer and/or buyer saw "Full Self-Driving Computer" on the dash display and interpreted this to mean the car had the FSD option.
(C) The dealer and/or buyer saw "FSD" or similar on the prior owners bill of sale (which they somehow obtained).
(D) The car did indeed have the FSD option present, but it was not mentioned on the bill of sale from Tesla (more below).
In all these cases, we are talking about cars the dealer/seller obtained from Tesla for resale. Cars that have not passed through Tesla's hands have not been subject to any of these issues (certainly none that have been reported on this forum that I can find).
In case A, we are just dealing with a dealer who is over-selling, uninformed, or lying (perish the thought). Case B is a common confusion between the car having hardware capable of FSD but not having the FSD option. This has come up a number of times here, and comes down to misunderstandings by dealers/buyers. Sadly this is caveat emptor.
Case C is the that seems to show up often here, though I'm not clear how sellers get hold of original sale documents (we're talking the original owner before the car was passed back to Tesla). In this case the assumption being made is that the car has not been altered/updated/refitted between the original sale and the resale, which is often not true for any brand of car (Lexus, for example, regularly re-tweak used cars features before resale). I dont think any buyer should rely on the original bill-of-sale, you should get documents from the dealer stating what you are buying, not assume anything based on older paperwork.
Case D is the bad one, and is clearly Tesla's fault. This seems to happen when Tesla de-option the car before selling it on, but the software update has not been pushed to the car before it is handed over to the dealer. In this case, some time after the car is purchased (with the option), the option disappears (on the next software update), leaving a very unhappy customer.
Case D is clearly Tesla's responsibility. I'm sure technically they could point to the documentation supplied to the dealer, but this is the "vanishing hardware" analogy that makes people mad (rightly so). But in fact, I can only find 2 cases where this was reported on this forum, and in both cases Tesla made good and enabled the option after some to-and-fro with the customer. Also, its been some time since I have seen this happen, so its possible Tesla have sorted out the business processes that allowed this to happen in the first place (as they should).
The problem, to my mind, is that these different cases get muddled up .. people like to claim every time this happens its case D, but in most cases it turns out to be otherwise .. often its case A or B, which really aren't Tesla's fault at all.
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Again, not sure why this is shady? Sure, Tesla seem to be getting "something for nothing", but in a sense that's true of all digital content, you are selling something intangible. So what?
And if you dont like the offer Tesla make when you trade the car in, you are free to sell it yourself on the open market, with the options you paid for, and so get some of your purchase price back. Just like any other hardware option. There is nothing forcing you to return the car to Tesla. Again, think of my engine analogy. If Ford bought back a car with a 3 liter engine, swapped it for a 2.5 liter engine, and then sold it like that, but with an offer to upgrade the car to 3 liter engine for more $$, would that be any different? Why?
Unless you leased a Model 3/Y, and then you are forced to return it to Tesla.
Of course, they were upfront about that.
mostly agree with you.......it's a grey area. I guess where it feels a little funny to me is if you buy fsd then you trade it in you don't get 10k value for the fsd(correct me if im wrong). so tesla will give you no value on the fsd or say 3k. Tesla buys the car back, removes fsd, sells the car to a new buyer and charges another 10k when(if) the new buyer wants fsd
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