EAP to FSD - bite the bullet now or risk it?

[Yev000]

its £6k in UK and if its raised to £7k it will be even less value for money.

Right now AP cant even take turns at certain speeds or slows down enough for turns... Thats plain AP. Yeah ok that is down to some stupd EU regulation, but still, why cant it slow down more for a turn? It will use the speed limit of 60 MPH to do a turn that is safe at 40 MPH. The computer must know it cant turn fast enough to make it....

All you get with FSD here is auto lane change (which is meh) - for £6k. It cant navigate roundabouts, which are everywhere. Every other motorway exit here leads to a giant roundabout. So to get from motorway to A road, you need to pass a roundabout (or 3).

I go through this one on a daily basis:

My route to the supermarket has 7 roundabouts:

So autosteer is "Beta" and they want me to pay £6k for FSD which is even more of a "Beta". Sorry guys.... No sale.

That aside, I am happy that basic AP is free and I use it all the time.

 

[SammichLover]

Thats plain AP. Yeah ok that is down to some stupd EU regulation, but still, why cant it slow down more for a turn? It will use the speed limit of 60 MPH to do a turn that is safe at 40 MPH.

"My Model 3 won't slow down enough because of an EU regulation"? This I'd like to hear an explanation about.

Especially considering how I cannot recall ever thinking "gee, AP should have slowed more for that turn". Uncounted times "haha AP, you're such a coward for slowing that much below the posted", but not the former.

 

[toolman335]

I just requested a refund on my fsd today. There is no way we will see robo taxi Teslas in NY. We don't allow anything here. We don't even allow turo.

I bought fsd and used it for the past two days. I drove about 140miles. My conclusion is that it doesn't really help with anything.

Autopilot is great but we already have that

Nav on auto pilot meh it required help merging multiple times. It almost stops on the highway trying to merge. It also missed an exit almost I had to take over. It's amazing but def a beta.

Lane changes are impressive that it does that when you ask but its really not that hard to do myself. Not worth 7 or 8k

Speed based lane changes are bad. It doesn't make good decisions. You are better off not using it.

Summon is flat out horrible. It's hilariously bad at routing. It's crazy slow. Get ready to watch your car drive all over the parking lot. Randomly hits the brakes hard over and over. Again your better off not using it. It's scary to use.

Auto park works but it's so slow I would just park myself. Perpendicular parking you need a car on each side which is meh. For some reason it parks sideways sometimes in spots or randomly gives up and says unavailable half way in.

Parallel parking works good actually but I cant justify 7 or 8k for that. I had a rental Prius that parallel parked itself just as good. This should be standard on a car like this.

Lastly stopping at traffic signals. Its not a feature it's a hindrance while driving. Really makes the driving experience annoying because it stops at everything even green lights. You have to keep hitting the gas or confirm stalk. The car will randomly slow before you hit it. It will also randomly think things are traffic lights. Bridges and overhead objects. While it's amazing the car doesn't run reds, it creates a bad driving experience. Your passengers will complain.

Conclusion I requested the refund and if there is some amazing update that makes it worth 8k in the next year I will think about it then.

It has to make my life easier though not harder.

Side note I love the model 3 but FSD is overpriced as it is. When this becomes worth using in 3-5 years there will be a lot of competition and much cooler cars. There may even be a new model 3.

This^^^^^^
This post is the best recap I've ever seen on FSD. I agree with every single word.
I test drove FSD and have a friend with it. I'm not sure I'd even spend $100 for it.
The only way I'd buy it is if I get divorced and have to spend the money or give half to my future ex-wife.
If you're quite wealthy then go for it, but it seems like you're debating it so I'm guessing you aren't. Save your money.
The car is AMAZING without it.

 

[TomB985]

All jokes aside, I think the real question to ask yourself is 1- how long do you plan on keeping the car and 2- what is $4k worth to you?
If you already think you are "biting the bullet" already then why bother? Do you believe in 3-5 years the FSD package will really allow you to take a nap on the car and take you to your destination?

The other factor not often mentioned is what you believe FSD will be worth when it's time to sell your car. It has value to the next buyer, the big question is how much.

Especially considering how I cannot recall ever thinking "gee, AP should have slowed more for that turn". Uncounted times "haha AP, you're such a coward for slowing that much below the posted", but not the former.

Mine has done that before, but they seem to tinker with that with each software revision. 90% of my miles are on autopilot, and it freaked me out with corner speed a few times. Last night I went on a route used to do this in the opposite happens; it was doing 43 MPH around a 55 MPH corner.

 

[SammichLover]

Mine has done that before, but they seem to tinker with that with each software revision. 90% of my miles are on autopilot, and it freaked me out with corner speed a few times. Last night I went on a route used to do this in the opposite happens; it was doing 43 MPH around a 55 MPH corner.

You’re talking about posted suggested speed for a corner? Well at least here they are mostly suggestions, when the are on an amber sign. White is “shall not exceed”, amber is “we suggest you don’t”. I know corners it used to drop below the suggested but I’ve found that AP now has a much better grasp on what the car can do an can keep above that amber number and at the “shall not exceed” speed limit or even +5.

But enough of this, what’s that about EU regulations?

 

[Yev000]

This I'd like to hear an explanation about.

Sure, here you go

Tesla Autopilot Europe restrictions explained: How regulations are hindering a Full Self-Driving future

 

[Yev000]

In addition to the above I frequently get "autosteer speed is liited, be prepared to take over" warning when it tries to take a corner at 60 MPH that is probably only safe @ 45 (with a 60 MPH speed limit).

In UK we have warnings and chevron signs (dont know what the real name for them are) for these turns, but obv there is no recognition for that yet. So The system does not start slowing untill into the turn and by then its too late and it starts leaving the road lane.

Motorways are gentle enough for that not to happen, but A roads are night on impossible.

However IF you are following behind someone who can slow you down into turns it behaves perfectly.

Question is why can't it do that on it's own?

 

[SammichLover]

However IF you are following behind someone who can slow you down into turns it behaves perfectly.

Question is why can't it do that on it's own?

That sounds something like behavior I saw well over a year ago. Then it went overly conservative for a handful of months, now for perhaps close to a year it is well dialed in outside of the weird case where coming up to the base of large, long, gentle rises on 110kph+ multilane roads unnecessarily causes it concern and it slows down well past what it needs to. It is very mildly annoying but annoying all the same that I have to put my right foot into it to coax it back up to an appropriate speed.

My guess is that the NN is currently only tuned for reading roads in Not-The-UK, and your roads somehow present a difference in look that hasn't yet been fully accounted for in the NN. That would also account for you seeing frequent changes, as Tesla works on dialing in the NN for your region.

 

[kianrollins]

I just requested a refund on my fsd today. There is no way we will see robo taxi Teslas in NY. We don't allow anything here. We don't even allow turo.

I bought fsd and used it for the past two days. I drove about 140miles. My conclusion is that it doesn't really help with anything.

Autopilot is great but we already have that

Nav on auto pilot meh it required help merging multiple times. It almost stops on the highway trying to merge. It also missed an exit almost I had to take over. It's amazing but def a beta.

Lane changes are impressive that it does that when you ask but its really not that hard to do myself. Not worth 7 or 8k

Speed based lane changes are bad. It doesn't make good decisions. You are better off not using it.

Summon is flat out horrible. It's hilariously bad at routing. It's crazy slow. Get ready to watch your car drive all over the parking lot. Randomly hits the brakes hard over and over. Again your better off not using it. It's scary to use.

Auto park works but it's so slow I would just park myself. Perpendicular parking you need a car on each side which is meh. For some reason it parks sideways sometimes in spots or randomly gives up and says unavailable half way in.

Parallel parking works good actually but I cant justify 7 or 8k for that. I had a rental Prius that parallel parked itself just as good. This should be standard on a car like this.

Lastly stopping at traffic signals. Its not a feature it's a hindrance while driving. Really makes the driving experience annoying because it stops at everything even green lights. You have to keep hitting the gas or confirm stalk. The car will randomly slow before you hit it. It will also randomly think things are traffic lights. Bridges and overhead objects. While it's amazing the car doesn't run reds, it creates a bad driving experience. Your passengers will complain.

Conclusion I requested the refund and if there is some amazing update that makes it worth 8k in the next year I will think about it then.

It has to make my life easier though not harder.

Side note I love the model 3 but FSD is overpriced as it is. When this becomes worth using in 3-5 years there will be a lot of competition and much cooler cars. There may even be a new model 3.

I tried to get a FSD refund. I didn't get anywhere. Good luck.

 

[Bubbatech]

FSD violates two my Prime Directives: 1) never buy software on the basis of a promise. 2) verify all claims. only buy If the claims are verified. While i believe Tesla will eventually achieve their goal, and that FSD is a worthy cause, I cannot justify the expenditure to subsidize that development effort.

 

[Quas]

I just requested a refund on my fsd today. There is no way we will see robo taxi Teslas in NY. We don't allow anything here. We don't even allow turo.

I bought fsd and used it for the past two days. I drove about 140miles. My conclusion is that it doesn't really help with anything.

Autopilot is great but we already have that

Nav on auto pilot meh it required help merging multiple times. It almost stops on the highway trying to merge. It also missed an exit almost I had to take over. It's amazing but def a beta.

Lane changes are impressive that it does that when you ask but its really not that hard to do myself. Not worth 7 or 8k

Speed based lane changes are bad. It doesn't make good decisions. You are better off not using it.

Summon is flat out horrible. It's hilariously bad at routing. It's crazy slow. Get ready to watch your car drive all over the parking lot. Randomly hits the brakes hard over and over. Again your better off not using it. It's scary to use.

Auto park works but it's so slow I would just park myself. Perpendicular parking you need a car on each side which is meh. For some reason it parks sideways sometimes in spots or randomly gives up and says unavailable half way in.

Parallel parking works good actually but I cant justify 7 or 8k for that. I had a rental Prius that parallel parked itself just as good. This should be standard on a car like this.

Lastly stopping at traffic signals. Its not a feature it's a hindrance while driving. Really makes the driving experience annoying because it stops at everything even green lights. You have to keep hitting the gas or confirm stalk. The car will randomly slow before you hit it. It will also randomly think things are traffic lights. Bridges and overhead objects. While it's amazing the car doesn't run reds, it creates a bad driving experience. Your passengers will complain.

Conclusion I requested the refund and if there is some amazing update that makes it worth 8k in the next year I will think about it then.

It has to make my life easier though not harder.

Side note I love the model 3 but FSD is overpriced as it is. When this becomes worth using in 3-5 years there will be a lot of competition and much cooler cars. There may even be a new model 3.

Agree on all points. Too expensive for what the product is today. It's a long way off yet.

 

[alcfeoh]

That aside, I am happy that basic AP is free and I use it all the time.

Basic AP is not free. As an early buyer of a Model 3 Long Range, I had to pay an extra $2,000 to get it, which I didn't do. It's been included with all cars for a little while now, but they increased the price of the car accordingly I think.
Basically, early adopters didn't get rewarded for their early adoption of the vehicle, as my Long Range M3 doesn't have features that a late buyer would have today.

 

[ChicagoSox]

Basic AP is not free. As an early buyer of a Model 3 Long Range, I had to pay an extra $2,000 to get it, which I didn't do. It's been included with all cars for a little while now, but they increased the price of the car accordingly I think.
Basically, early adopters didn't get rewarded for their early adoption of the vehicle, as my Long Range M3 doesn't have features that a late buyer would have today.

you also paid less being a early adopter and got the tax benefits us late adopters didn't so its a wash

 

[Knightshade]

Basic AP is not free. As an early buyer of a Model 3 Long Range, I had to pay an extra $2,000 to get it, which I didn't do. It's been included with all cars for a little while now, but they increased the price of the car accordingly I think.

Yeah- they raised the price of all the cars that "get AP free" by $2000 when they made it "free"

So really all they did was make it a mandatory $2000 option you had no choice about not taking.

(with the exception of the off-menu $35,000 SR where it has always been a paid option and still is)

I tried to get a FSD refund. I didn't get anywhere. Good luck.

He'll get it. He mentioned he'd only gotten it for 2 days- Tesla refunds upgrades within 48 hours if requested.

Beyond that? Yeah- no refunds.

 

[Technomad]

"My Model 3 won't slow down enough because of an EU regulation"? This I'd like to hear an explanation about.

Especially considering how I cannot recall ever thinking "gee, AP should have slowed more for that turn". Uncounted times "haha AP, you're such a coward for slowing that much below the posted", but not the former.

It's not an EU reg, it's the idiotic UN/ECE 79 - UN reg adopted by most of Europe, including the UK. Basically, it limits the angular rate of change to the point where my car is happily trundling along a twisty road, enters a bend that it's obviously quite comfortable with, then instantly bails out when the radius/speed combination exceeds the threshold. It's terrible and it's dangerous - both the idea and the way Tesla implement it - because the car doesn't do any map or data-driven look ahead, it doesn't give any warning ahead of the bend to take control. One of a range of reasons why FSD is pointless in Europe. https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/2017/R079r2am3e.pdfhttps://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/2017/R079r2am3e.pdf

 

[alcfeoh]

you also paid less being an early adopter and got the tax benefits us late adopters didn't so its a wash

The current price of M3 Long Range is $10K less than what I paid, so I'm not sure how I paid less back then. The tax benefits make it even if we don't factor in the AP. And I got all of the paint and gap issues from early production days too

At some point, I considered selling my M3 to get a new one with more features for pretty much no added dollars and a new battery...

 

[P3dStealth]

I tried to get a FSD refund. I didn't get anywhere. Good luck.

They sent me an email saying the refund will post to my card in 3-5 days and they took FSD off my car withing 10mins.

I literally was sitting in the car and the screen turned off then restarted and it was gone.

After buying FSD on the app if you go back into upgrades there is a request refund button for 48hrs.

 

[JustSaying]

Buy the subscription when it comes out, maybe get a free upgrade to HW3 computer, cancel subscription after a month, enjoy the better visualizations, maybe they'll add red-light/stop-sign warning alerts as a safety feature. And still enjoy the decent autopilot on highways with EAP.

Years ago when I had my OnStar upgraded from analog to digital (Yes I am old) I had to sign a two year contract to get the upgrade for "free"

 

[Knightshade]

The current price of M3 Long Range is $10K less than what I paid, so I'm not sure how I paid less back then. The tax benefits make it even if we don't factor in the AP. And I got all of the paint and gap issues from early production days too

At some point, I considered selling my M3 to get a new one with more features for pretty much no added dollars and a new battery...

The math has been covered many many times. The price of the car, considering credits and changes to features, has not changed significantly since 2018 (or 2019 for the SR versions) for any currently available car today with FSD in both cases.


My car was $53,000 for LR AWD, $5000 for EAP, $1000 for blue paint, $3000 for FSD, $1000 destination charge... so $63,000 plus tax.

I got a $7500 federal tax credit- so $55,500 net price.


TODAY a LR AWD is $46,990, $1000 for blue, $7000 for FSD, $1200 destination charge- total of... $56,190.

$690 MORE than I paid back in 2018.

And don't forget Tesla has also pulled some nickle-and-dime stuff OUT of the factory car to make the difference even larger.... the 2020 car doesn't come with:

Homelink (a $300 option installed after delivery now, standard when I bought.)
A 14-50 adapter ($35 no-longer-included part)
Phone charging cables ($14 from tesla.com now)
Interior ambient lighting is gone now (no option to get it at any price)
Dead pedal is gone now (no option to get it at any price)
Frunk/trunk mats no longer come with the car so that's probably another $100 to buy mats.

So really it's well north of $1000 MORE expensive -today- and you still would be missing a few things my car had.

And that's without adding my car has free lifetime premium connectivity.

That's $9.99 a month now after the first year for new buyers.




Same is true on the SR and SR plus of course... if anything those are STILL kinda overpriced compared to launch- especially the SR.


The 35k SR (off menu only) was 35k minus $3750 tax credit at launch, and minus $1875 tax credit second half of 2019... today it's still... 35k. No credits. So effectively $3750 more expensive today than when launched.

The SR+ to go apples to apples was 40k with basic AP minus $3750 tax credit at launch...and today it's $37,990 with basic AP and no credit. Still MORE than it cost when launched though it's not as bad as the base SR.


And on the highest end of things- $69,000 was the P3D+ price in fall of 2018...but quickly cut to $64,000 (and anyone who paid 69k got a 5k refund)- so with EAP/FSD, but minus $7500 tax credit and destination charge price was $65,500 net plus tax.

Today? $54,990 for the P, plus $7000 for FSD, plus $1200 destination- net price of...$63,190... once you consider the hardware they pulled out (and the lack of free connectivity) once again todays car isn't really significantly cheaper than if you'd bought it in 2018... though I suppose it's the "nearest" to actually being any cheaper...not surprising given it's the highest margin version.


And of course all the 2020s go up another $1000 July 1 for FSD price increase.

 

[RedBaronCircus]

I just requested a refund on my fsd today. There is no way we will see robo taxi Teslas in NY. We don't allow anything here. We don't even allow turo.

I bought fsd and used it for the past two days. I drove about 140miles. My conclusion is that it doesn't really help with anything.

Autopilot is great but we already have that

Nav on auto pilot meh it required help merging multiple times. It almost stops on the highway trying to merge. It also missed an exit almost I had to take over. It's amazing but def a beta.

Lane changes are impressive that it does that when you ask but its really not that hard to do myself. Not worth 7 or 8k

Speed based lane changes are bad. It doesn't make good decisions. You are better off not using it.

Summon is flat out horrible. It's hilariously bad at routing. It's crazy slow. Get ready to watch your car drive all over the parking lot. Randomly hits the brakes hard over and over. Again your better off not using it. It's scary to use.

Auto park works but it's so slow I would just park myself. Perpendicular parking you need a car on each side which is meh. For some reason it parks sideways sometimes in spots or randomly gives up and says unavailable half way in.

Parallel parking works good actually but I cant justify 7 or 8k for that. I had a rental Prius that parallel parked itself just as good. This should be standard on a car like this.

Lastly stopping at traffic signals. Its not a feature it's a hindrance while driving. Really makes the driving experience annoying because it stops at everything even green lights. You have to keep hitting the gas or confirm stalk. The car will randomly slow before you hit it. It will also randomly think things are traffic lights. Bridges and overhead objects. While it's amazing the car doesn't run reds, it creates a bad driving experience. Your passengers will complain.

Conclusion I requested the refund and if there is some amazing update that makes it worth 8k in the next year I will think about it then.

It has to make my life easier though not harder.

Side note I love the model 3 but FSD is overpriced as it is. When this becomes worth using in 3-5 years there will be a lot of competition and much cooler cars. There may even be a new model 3.